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CRMcNeill
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 Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 1:32 am Post subject: Control Pain as a Reaction Skill |
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So, per the RAW, if a Jedi who is using Lightsaber Combat gets wounded, LSC drops and he must re-roll Control and Sense to bring LSC back up, with a -1D penalty for being Wounded, plus a -1D MAP for rolling Control and Alter in the same round (because the alternative is to be stuck without LSC up in a combat situation: never a good idea).
So that got me thinking. Control Pain allows a Jedi to act as if he is uninjured (specifically, if he succeeds, he is still injured, but ignores the penalty and may act normally). So what if, rather than going through the whole re-roll mess in paragraph 1, the Jedi was permitted a single Control Pain roll as a reaction skill (with MAPs as appropriate)? If he succeeds, he is still Wounded, but can defer that damage until the end of battle, and combat continues normally. If he fails, he reverts to the paragraph 1 technique.
It seems a fair use of Control Pain, even though the RAW ignored the possibility of Force skills and abilities being used for reactions. Thoughts?
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garhkal
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| Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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I could see it if he has already got it up, he can defer the LS (or other skills being dropped), but not as a reaction.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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I'm just not sure if I see it that way...
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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cheshire
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| Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 7:56 am Post subject: |
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I'll take two approaches on this:
In Episode 3 when Jedi get shot, (Even Ki Adi Mundi, who seems to see it coming long enough to defend a bit) their ability to loose their lightsaber diminishes rapidly, and they tend to get shot a whole bunch more. Based on what we see on the screen, can you tell me how such a competent Jedi would have reacted, successfully gotten Control Pain up, kept their LS combat up, and still fought like crap until winding up as a charred mess?
I've also expressed this same idea in another thread, and that is the idea of game balance. If we make so many of these Force powers reaction skills, then we're going to boost Jedi combat effectiveness. They're already the most combat effective group in the game. To deepen that divide between Jedi and non-Jedi complicates an already existing problem in the game.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 11:36 am Post subject: |
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| cheshire wrote: | | I've also expressed this same idea in another thread, and that is the idea of game balance. If we make so many of these Force powers reaction skills, then we're going to boost Jedi combat effectiveness. They're already the most combat effective group in the game. To deepen that divide between Jedi and non-Jedi complicates an already existing problem in the game. |
True, but not everyone sees it that way. I know I had a private e-mail conversation with atgxtg where he specifically stated that the RAW did not accurately represent the way the Force is used in the films; that Force use in the RAW is entirely conscious, with choosing to roll powers rather than getting intuitive insight without conscious effort. I don't know if this is what he had in mind, but the core idea is there, that some of us would rather sacrifice power balance for a system that more accurately represents what we see in the films. As for the Jedi being too powerful? There are ways around that, too; hit them with a high-level bad guy to face while the rest of the group is facing villains more appropriate to their skill level; give them lots of power, then hamper the use of that power by behavioral constraints (ala garhkal's Disturbance in the Force rules and/or ZzaphodD's Will of the Dark Side rules). Sure, they may end up more powerful, but that's more like how it is in the films too.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Bren
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| Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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I'm on the fence on this. I don't so much care about accurately replicating what we see on screen since I think that what we see is more dramatically driven and it isn't very consistent from a RPG rules perspective.
I can see a Jedi who is wounded, being able to continue fighting without losing lightsaber combat, using the force (via control pain) to continue fighting until the combat is over and then he drops to his knees or collapses incapacitated. That is a cool scene and dramatically interesting as the rest of his pals now need to figure out what to do.
I can also see a Jedi who is wounded being wounded. Losing LS combat, losing actions that round, falling to the ground, being incapacitated, etc. Then he summons his will, reaches out to the force, <cue dramatic music> uses control pain and stands back up - when everyone thought he was down and out - and re-enters the fray. Also a cool and dramatic scene.
Hard for me to choose between the two. I think, overall I may have to go with number two as being more dramatic and a bit more balanced in play. However, I know already that others will disagree (probably with both choices). 
Edited to remove annoying typos missed in the first go round.
Last edited by Bren on Mon Aug 15, 2011 4:24 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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cheshire
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| Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: |
True, but not everyone sees it that way. I know I had a private e-mail conversation with atgxtg where he specifically stated that the RAW did not accurately represent the way the Force is used in the films; that Force use in the RAW is entirely conscious, with choosing to roll powers rather than getting intuitive insight without conscious effort. I don't know if this is what he had in mind, but the core idea is there, that some of us would rather sacrifice power balance for a system that more accurately represents what we see in the films. As for the Jedi being too powerful? There are ways around that, too; hit them with a high-level bad guy to face while the rest of the group is facing villains more appropriate to their skill level; give them lots of power, then hamper the use of that power by behavioral constraints (ala garhkal's Disturbance in the Force rules and/or ZzaphodD's Will of the Dark Side rules). Sure, they may end up more powerful, but that's more like how it is in the films too. |
I suppose then we should ask if we're first and foremost trying to create mechanics for a roleplaying game, or mechanics for a movie. I'll openly acknowledge that there some things in movies that don't translate well into an RPG, and Star Wars is no exception. Usually when one translates one form of media into another, accomodations have to be made. For example, using the novel Fellowship of the Ring as a point by point guide for making the film would have resulted in a wonderful recreation of the book, but an awful movie. Translating a film into an RPG is similar. If you don't make accommodations, you can sacrifice game balance, playability, or a number of other functions that make RPGs worth while.
I think in the short term the power boosts can be fun. I won't deny having used them in the climax of my games (when I was deliberately moving them toward being game-ending abilities). Though when you stack too many power boosting abilities, you do have some sacrifices made in the long run.
If further boosting Jedi is what you want to do in your game and if that is what feels like fun to you and your players, then by all means, please do. I suppose I personally try to play games where you don't need to split the party to challenge everyone, and just try to find mechanics that make a solid game based on the movies, rather than mechanics that are direct transcriptions of the movies.
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Bren
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| Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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| cheshire wrote: | | I suppose then we should ask if we're first and foremost trying to create mechanics for a roleplaying game, or mechanics for a movie. |
I'd probably state the dichotomy a bit differently.
Are we primarily trying to create mechanics that (i) provide some balance between the abilities of Force Users and non-Force Users or (ii) are we primarily trying to recreate the powerful actions we see from the Force Users in the movies?
Imagine a a board balanced on a fulcrum with the left side of the board labled as Balanced Abilities and the right side of the board labeled as Powerful Actions. When interpreting or designing rules, most of us could then be characterized as either more or less to the left or to the right of the fulcrum. I see this as a left-side/right-side question, not a right/wrong question. |
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cheshire
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| Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | I'd probably state the dichotomy a bit differently.
Are we primarily trying to create mechanics that (i) provide some balance between the abilities of Force Users and non-Force Users or (ii) are we primarily trying to recreate the powerful actions we see from the Force Users in the movies?
Imagine a a board balanced on a fulcrum with the left side of the board labled as Balanced Abilities and the right side of the board labeled as Powerful Actions. When interpreting or designing rules, most of us could then be characterized as either more or less to the left or to the right of the fulcrum. I see this as a left-side/right-side question, not a right/wrong question. |
Well put, sir. As even I tend to put a fulcrum further toward the powerful actions side where there isn't a perfect game balance. I don't think I've seen a SW game that is perfectly balanced.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | I see this as a left-side/right-side question, not a right/wrong question. |
Agreed.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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True.. As to those Bren stated, i can see both of those as possible 'dramatic' situations. BUT perhaps for #1, the jedi had forsight and already had control pain up...
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Bren
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| Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | True.. As to those Bren stated, i can see both of those as possible 'dramatic' situations. BUT perhaps for #1, the jedi had forsight and already had control pain up... |
Control pain is not really like resist stun. Putting control pain up (just in case) before you are actually in pain seems odd to me.
If I was going for situation #1, increasing the difficulty (or requiring spending a FP) to use control pain as a reaction skill seems a better way to go to me than allowing a Jedi to put up the power 'just in case.' |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | True.. As to those Bren stated, i can see both of those as possible 'dramatic' situations. BUT perhaps for #1, the jedi had forsight and already had control pain up... |
Control pain is not really like resist stun. Putting control pain up (just in case) before you are actually in pain seems odd to me. |
I agree. I was looking at it more as a reaction skill after the damage occurs, and only in the sense that it would allow the Jedi a potential save (at increased difficulty) to keep important powers up. For instance, say the Jedi is using LSC to deflect blaster bolts being fired by multiple stormtroopers at a high-ranking Alliance official. The Jedi makes a bad roll and gets hit with a blaster bolt, and is now wounded. Per the RAW, LSC drops if the character is wounded, but if LSC drops, then the troopers get a clear shot at their target. So, to keep LSC from dropping, the Jedi gets to roll Control Pain (at increased difficulty) to keep that power up.
I wouldn't be averse to having this as a special rule that only applies when a character is actively using another Force power.
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Bren
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| Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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Your example seem tailor made for spending a FP to allow the Jedi to keep LS Combat up and to continue deflecting shots. It's far more dramatic to have the Jedi succeed in his bodyguard activities and then when the combat is over, slump over wounded etc. than to have the Jedi just using the FP to up his STR roll to resist the shot and not take any damage in the first place.
The first says, nothing will stop me from my duty - though I will pay a price sometimes. The second just says - I'm a PC and I'm too bad to take damage from blasters. Yech.  |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 11:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | Your example seem tailor made for spending a FP to allow the Jedi to keep LS Combat up and to continue deflecting shots. It's far more dramatic to have the Jedi succeed in his bodyguard activities and then when the combat is over, slump over wounded etc. than to have the Jedi just using the FP to up his STR roll to resist the shot and not take any damage in the first place.
The first says, nothing will stop me from my duty - though I will pay a price sometimes. The second just says - I'm a PC and I'm too bad to take damage from blasters. Yech. |
So how's about;
Control pain.
This force power can be used in reactions to actually taking damage so rather than other 'kept up' force powers dropping this takes their place. BUT the price for doing so is your wound level increases one step once your control pain is dropped.. eg wounded goes to wounded twice, wounded twice to incap, incap to mortally wounded.
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