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CRMcNeill
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 Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 3:21 pm Post subject: Splinter Of The Mind's Eye |
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I've always been a fan of this novel, but as the EU has expanded, SOTME has really taken a hit continuity-wise. The biggest contradiction is the fight scene at the end with Luke vs. Vader, especially with regards to how Vader was completely unaware of his father-son connection with Luke. The one explanation I've heard that I really liked was that the Vader that Luke and Leia faced on Mimban was not, in fact, the real Darth Vader, but a clone. The backstory is that, without Vader's knowledge, Palpatine made a series of clones of Vader, and experimented with some of them by inflicting horrible burns and slicing off their limbs, basically duplicating Vader's wounds so that they were forced to live in suits identical to Vader's. Eventually, Vader found out and killed all the other clones in a rage, but not before Palpatine sent one out on a mission to Mimban.
The story isn't a 100% fit, but it is plausible enough, based on what is known of Palpatine and the technology available at the time. Plus, an inexperienced Luke and Leia facing a clone of Vader (likely with reduced stats) makes more sense than the idea that a barely trained kid can take down a Dark Lord of the Sith on his own...
Any other SOTME fans out there want to comment or offer up their own theories?
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Guardian_A
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 3:50 pm Post subject: |
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I liked the novel, but its been so long ago that I read the book that I dont remember it really well.
One explanation would be that Vader simply didnt know that Luke was his son yet. Vader thought Padme and her child had died giving birth, and he gave no sign of recognizing Luke in episode 4. It may be been that he didnt discover the connection until after the events of SotME, but before the events on Bespin in episode 5. |
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Bren
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill appears to have some very disturbing recollections of the novel. |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Guardian_A wrote: | | One explanation would be that Vader simply didnt know that Luke was his son yet. Vader thought Padme and her child had died giving birth, and he gave no sign of recognizing Luke in episode 4. It may be been that he didnt discover the connection until after the events of SotME, but before the events on Bespin in episode 5. |
It's possible, but doesn't explain how Vader gets beaten in a lightsaber fight by a pre-TESB Luke, who has had no training with lightsaber combat apart from what he learned from Obi-wan on the Falcon on the way to Alderaan.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | Whill appears to have some very disturbing recollections of the novel. |
I caught that, and that's what got me thinking about it, but my question didn't seem appropriate for the topic...
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Guardian_A
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Guardian_A wrote: | | One explanation would be that Vader simply didnt know that Luke was his son yet. Vader thought Padme and her child had died giving birth, and he gave no sign of recognizing Luke in episode 4. It may be been that he didnt discover the connection until after the events of SotME, but before the events on Bespin in episode 5. |
It's possible, but doesn't explain how Vader gets beaten in a lightsaber fight by a pre-TESB Luke, who has had no training with lightsaber combat apart from what he learned from Obi-wan on the Falcon on the way to Alderaan. |
I'm not saying I'm right, I'm just saying that its possible. Vader was dealing with more enemies than just the heroes. Who's to say he wasnt injured in a recent battle, resulting in a less than stellar performance in battle? Possible damage to his suit? Physical injuries? |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Guardian_A wrote: | | I'm not saying I'm right, I'm just saying that its possible. Vader was dealing with more enemies than just the heroes. Who's to say he wasnt injured in a recent battle, resulting in a less than stellar performance in battle? Possible damage to his suit? Physical injuries? |
Usually, when I hear a new idea, first impressions are key. I either find myself nodding my head in agreement and thinking "that could work", or shaking my head and thinking "naaaaaah...." It's not that it isn't plausible, but what recent battle would he have gotten wounded in? If anything, Vader getting wounded in a battle would support my theory just as well, because Vader would be stuck on Coruscant recuperating, so the Emperor would need a Vader stand-in. For me, the Emperor cloning Vader and then f-ing up the clones to the point where they have to wear the Vader suit just to survive sounds exactly like Palpatine, and adds another layer of evil to his background (as if he needed one more).
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Whill
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | Whill appears to have some very disturbing recollections of the novel. |
lol, yeah. I don't want to read even suggestive language about Luke having a hard-on after sleeping near Leia. Ew. But in the author's defense, he didn't know Luke and Leia were siblings at the time either.
| Guardian_A wrote: | | One explanation would be that Vader simply didnt know that Luke was his son yet. Vader thought Padme and her child had died giving birth, and he gave no sign of recognizing Luke in episode 4. It may be been that he didnt discover the connection until after the events of SotME, but before the events on Bespin in episode 5. |
Yes, and I think that is even official EU canon that SotME takes place first (like around a year before TESB IIRC).
| crmcneill wrote: | | Usually, when I hear a new idea, first impressions are key. I either find myself nodding my head in agreement and thinking "that could work", or shaking my head and thinking "naaaaaah...." |
A Vader clone? "Naaaaaah...." 8) If a clone of Vader works better for you then great, but to me that seems to be an overcomplicated solution to a simple issue of chronology...
Vader didn't even find out that the young Rebel who destroyed the Death Star was named "Luke Skywalker" until shortly before TESB. And I have previously pointed out that it is more clear in the the revised Vader-Palpatine dialogue in the 2004 DVD version of TESB that Vader doesn't find out conclusively that Luke Skywalker is his son until then. The classic trilogy junior novelations (2004) and The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader (2007) both confirm these things.
So one of Vader's agents uncovers the name of the young Rebel who destroyed the Death Star. Vader is of course intrigued by the name, but still doesn't believe that Padme had a child that lived (and back during RotS he didn't know Padme was pregnant with twins and thought their single child in utero was a girl). Vader surmises that Luke may either be a distant relative of his through his mother, or that he may just be of no relation and just using the last name of the famous Clone Wars "hero without fear" as a rallying point for the Rebellion. But since Vader had known that the ship that had brought Obi-Wan to the Death Star had "blasted its way out of Mos Eisley" he had already deduced that Obi-Wan had been living on Tatooine, and so when he found out the name of the Rebel pilot in the Death Star trench that had been so strong in the Force, he then assumed that Obi-Wan had provided Jedi training to the Rebel known as Luke Skywalker on Tatooine. Vader then made it a personal quest to find Luke Skywalker before the Emperor found out about him. His directive from Palpatine to hunt down Rebel bases went along with his obsession to find Skywalker whom Vader was sure was at one of the main Rebel base. But then Vader gets the call from Palpatine who tells him that the Rebel who destroyed the Death star is his son (in the new version Luke is not named). So even though Palpatine may or may not have known Luke's name, he knew he was the offspring of Anakin Skywalker. Vader is shocked and asked him the very first logical question, "How is that possible?"(which Palpatine doesn't answer because RotS hadn't come out yet).
So Vader discovers that the name of the Rebel who destroyed the Death Star is Luke Skywalker and then later that he the offspring of Anakin Skywalker, ergo Luke Skywalker is his son. Then he tells Luke that on Bespin.
| crmcneill wrote: | | It's possible, but doesn't explain how Vader gets beaten in a lightsaber fight by a pre-TESB Luke, who has had no training with lightsaber combat apart from what he learned from Obi-wan on the Falcon on the way to Alderaan. |
Leia was in the battle too and also fought Vader with Luke's (Anakin's) lightsaber. The book itself provides the explanation both Rebels' enhanced abilities, and I'm surprised you missed that. It was the Kaibur crystal that amplified the flow of the Force through Luke and Leia against Vader. In the climax of the battle, one of them cuts off Vader's arm and he falls into a deep dark pit.
| crmcneill wrote: | | Any other SOTME fans out there want to comment or offer up their own theories? |
My primary issue with the book is the fact that Luke confronts Vader at all before TESB. Although it is not absolutely explicit in the film, the movie makes the most sense to me if that is Luke and Vader's first direct confrontation. It's just an intuition, a feeling of mine. I feel it just makes TESB (and the film saga) a better story if it is the first time they met.
A more minor point was that I thought it stupid that Leia was the one who didn't know how to swim. After all, if one of them didn't know how to swim, Luke grew up on a desert planet with no bodies of water to swim in!
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | A Vader clone? "Naaaaaah...." 8) If a clone of Vader works better for you then great, but to me that seems to be an overcomplicated solution to a simple issue of chronology... |
Touche. But then, there is this rumor that keeps going around that we are all entitled to our own opinions. 
And while it works fine from a chronology standpoint, it still doesn't explain how a lightsaber-wielding juggernaut like Vader who has spent the last twenty years hunting down and killing Jedi who are actually trained in lightsaber combat gets fought to a standstill and ultimately defeated by a pair of untrained kids. I didn't miss the reference to the Kaiburr crystal, I merely remembered that it only had a boosting effect on Luke's power when he was holding it, which he wasn't until after the fight with Vader. If the crystal boosted Force abilities purely by proximity, then Vader's Force abilities would've been boosted as well.
| Quote: | | My primary issue with the book is the fact that Luke confronts Vader at all before TESB. Although it is not absolutely explicit in the film, the movie makes the most sense to me if that is Luke and Vader's first direct confrontation. It's just an intuition, a feeling of mine. I feel it just makes TESB (and the film saga) a better story if it is the first time they met. |
I agree completely, which is why the clone idea works for me; if the Vader of SOTME was a clone, it means that Luke wasn't actually facing Vader, just a weaker copy, which also makes it easier to understand the result of the lightsaber fight.
| Quote: | | A more minor point was that I thought it stupid that Leia was the one who didn't know how to swim. After all, if one of them didn't know how to swim, Luke grew up on a desert planet with no bodies of water to swim in! |
LOL. Very true. I had forgotten all about that.
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Whill
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| Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 12:32 am Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | And while it works fine from a chronology standpoint, it still doesn't explain how a lightsaber-wielding juggernaut like Vader who has spent the last twenty years hunting down and killing Jedi who are actually trained in lightsaber combat gets fought to a standstill and ultimately defeated by a pair of untrained kids. I didn't miss the reference to the Kaiburr crystal, I merely remembered that it only had a boosting effect on Luke's power when he was holding it, which he wasn't until after the fight with Vader. If the crystal boosted Force abilities purely by proximity, then Vader's Force abilities would've been boosted as well. |
Logical. Flawlessly logical... I'm surprised I even remember as much about the book as I do. I first had the book and read it somewhere 93-95, and I was like "Naaaaaah...." and sold it to my favorite half-price bookstore. And then I bought the comic book version of the entire novel somewhere 1998-2002, and I was like "Oh yeah" and actually got a full refund at the comic shop I bought it at just by asking with my reciept. 8)
But who knows, maybe I'll read one of those again in the future because I have my own ideas for multiple shards of a Kaiburr crystal (except that they are much more powerful with various special abilities)
After all, Lucas believes that "the MacGuffin should be powerful and that the audience should care about it almost as much as the dueling heroes and villains on-screen." I like that idea.
| crmcneill wrote: | | I agree completely, which is why the clone idea works for me; if the Vader of SOTME was a clone, it means that Luke wasn't actually facing Vader, just a weaker copy, which also makes it easier to understand the result of the lightsaber fight. |
Well that would actually make more sense than the book.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 10:19 am Post subject: |
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The history of Splinter Of The Mind's Eye is pretty interesting. According to Wookieepedia, Lucas actually asked Alan Dean Foster to write it up as a possible low-budget sequel in case Star Wars flopped. Apparently ADF included a starfighter battle scene in the opening chapter that Lucas chopped because it would've been too expensive to film had SOTME gone that far. Because of its plot inconsistencies, some critics hold it up as proof that George didn't actually have the whole story plotted out in his head at that point.
I can't remember how old I was when I got my copy, but it was probably within a year or two after TESB came out, so I wasn't even 10 yet. At that point, I was a little too young to care about things like plot inconsistencies; it was Star Wars, so I devoured it (figuratively speaking) and read it over and over until the cover literally fell off. As such, I can't remember all the details, but a lot of them are still pretty clear, even decades later. As I got old enough to start asking questions, I ended up pushing SOTME to the back burner simply because I couldn't explain the conflicts, so I was very pleased when this idea came up (I can't even remember where) and I found myself nodding my head and thinking "That could work."
For all its inconsistencies, SOTME is arguably the beginning of the EU. It preceded Brian Daley's Han Solo trilogy and WEG. Granted, the Holiday Special came out first, but I understand Lucas would be perfectly happy if every copy of the Holiday Special were put in a pile and burned. But I digress. Living in the glut of SW-related material that we do now, it's hard to even remember what it was like back in the days when all I had were my action figures and SOTME, so there s certainly a bit of sentimentalism attached to the book, which is probably a big part of why I want the story line to make sense and fit.
I've never featured something like the Kaiburr crystal in a campaign, but the idea of an inanimate object boosting Force sensitivity is certainly an interesting one. And you're right about it being a MacGuffin; keeping this thing once you get ahold of it would almost certainly be a full time job, and a very dangerous one at that. However, it does raise the interesting possibility for Force artifacts if crystals can be infused with the Force...
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Bren
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| Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 11:34 am Post subject: |
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The planet Lazeria in the Twin Stars of Kira sourcebook has crystals that provide some benefit to force users. I can't recall what the benefit is at the moment. Also the Carosi have healing crystals that benefit force healing. I believe they are mentioned in the Planet's Collection in the entry for Carosi IV. Here is the writeup I used for an adventure I ran.
Appendix: Carosite Crystals
These deep red crystals, which range in size from 5 to 10cm long, come from the planet Carosi IV. These crystals grew naturally in deep caverns below the surface of Carosi IV, and they cannot be synthetically grown. Since Carosi IV was destroyed when its sun became a red giant, no new crystals can be found.
These crystals are only effective with Healing powers and nothing else. And only healing uses of the above powers will work. Using the crystals for any other force power will fracture the crystal, turning it into powder, and no benefit will be gained from the use. These crystals *cannot* be used by darkside Force users, and *any* use of them by a person of this orientation will cause the crystal to turn to powder. Since the crystals are useful only to Force Users, they are worthless to the general public. They are like the "spiritual" crystals of many Earth cultures, as they are only *really* effective for those who are attuned to their use, and are useless to others, except as cheap jewelry.
The crystals give a bonus to Accelerate Healing, Control Pain, Reduce Injury, Accelerate Other's Healing, Control Another's Pain, Return Another to Consciousness, or Transfer Force, Heal Disease, etc. Continued or overuse of a crystal uses up the crystal causing it to develop micro fractures and is permanently flawed. Also, all color disappears from the crystal and it becomes a useless piece of transparent crystal. Multiple crystals can be used giving greater bonuses. However to many crystals may cause a discordant resonance in the force and cause increasing penalties to the roll of the user. |
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Whill
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| Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | The history of Splinter Of The Mind's Eye is pretty interesting. According to Wookieepedia, Lucas actually asked Alan Dean Foster to write it up as a possible low-budget sequel in case Star Wars flopped... Because of its plot inconsistencies, some critics hold it up as proof that George didn't actually have the whole story plotted out in his head at that point...
For all its inconsistencies, SOTME is arguably the beginning of the EU. |
Well, it is true that Lucas didn't have the whole story mapped out in detail, but he had a basic outline. Lucas tasking ADF to write a possible Star Wars sequel doesn't mean that he didn't have some key aspects of the story plotted out in his head. Lucas was merely cultivating options, and Lucas has proven that he is a shrewd businessman. Lucas has a history of entertaining secondary possiblities and keeping them open as an option for a while then eventually returning to an earlier vision.
I have gone into great detail in other threads how Lucas came up with one film, then realized he had too much for one film so split it into a trilogy and also that the backstory could also possibly be prequel films. Lucas originally had "Episode IV" at the beginning of the opening crawl but Fox nixed it because they thought it would be confusing. Then when Star Wars was a huge success, the film got re-relased theatrically and Lucas was allowed to include Episode IV. The basic story of the his saga centered around the rise of the Empire and the fall of Anakin Skywalker (backstory/prequels), and the redemption of Anakin Skywalker and defeat of the Empire (original films).
Until pre-production of RotJ, Lucas had previously entertained the possiblity of tacking one or two sequel trilogies on to the end of his original saga about the fall and redemption of Luke's father (by not killing off the Emperor as originally planned). But those possible sequel trilogies only had a few ideas but no real story to base them on. The Fall and Redemption of Anakin Skywalker was the story he had, so he decided to just end it with that as originally planned. And sure, there are a few aspects of the story that defintely weren't plotted out in advance, like Leia being Luke's sister.
But that doesn't mean that he didn't have any story in mind for the first Star Wars sequel. He did. It was to be based on "Act II" of his original 1-movie story that pre-dates ANH. The visions he had for it included a Jedi training montage for Luke (with a lot of opportunity for philosophical dialogue), progression of the the Han-Leia love story, and a direct confrontation between Luke and Vader in which Luke learns Vader is his father.
It is true that Lucas directed Marvel Comics to not include Luke and Leia in the first post-ANH stories because he was considering alternate possiblities of what to do with them going forward, so the first story centered around Han and Chewie. But soon enough, Luke and Leia were included in the comic book. And it is also true that Lucas directed ADF to not include Han in SotME because at the time, Harrison Ford had not yet signed for the sequel and Lucas was prepared to write Han out of the saga if he had to, but didn't yet know how exactly how he would go about it if he did. But none of this means Lucas didn't have basic stories of Act II and Act III plotted out in advance.
Because of its plot inconsistencies, some hold SotME up as proof that it is not really the beginning of the EU. Although Lucas did provide a little guidance to early Star Wars publishing (like with Marvel and SotME), at that point there wasn't really an "Expanded Universe" where an effort was made to make the published works consistent with each other. The modern EU began with the attempt to reconsile Heir to the Empire and Dark Empire in the early 90's, and then they evaluated all previously published works and retroactively designated each one as either canon, maybe-canon, or non-canon. At the time, Marvel was designated as maybe-canon (but I understand that since then most if not all of Marvel has been elevated to canon, as was decided possibly back then with the maybe-canon designation).
SotME was then desinated as canon and placed in the EU after its official creation in the early 90's. As it has already been pointed out, there are some problems with that. So when SotME first came out, it was defintely an expansion of the Star Wars universe as it was defined at the time by the first film alone, but not EU per se at the time. But I guess these considerations are somewhat moot because the modern EU is so plagued with inconsitencies with respect to both the film saga and itself that it is so hard to see that there is any effort being made to coordiate it all. It seems the EU is like, 'the more the merrier!' 'Just make up anything and we'll shoe-horn it all in somehow.'
That's exactly why I elect to pick and choose published works out of the EU for my WU (and alter anything that I feel needs altered to work better for me). And since I don't have a sentimental attachment to SotME, I just choose to reject it. Refreshing my memory of the final battle win which Luke and Leia inexplicably defeat Vader only strengthens my rejection of it. And ADF got the idea for the Kaiburr Crystal from an early daft of Lucas' original single-movie version of Star Wars that had been tossed out by Lucas because he thought the Force worked better as being more abstract, so my use of the idea isn't even really based on this novel.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | Appendix: Carosite Crystals |
Have you considered the possibility of using Transfer Force to refuel crystals?
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | That's exactly why I elect to pick and choose published works out of the EU for my WU (and alter anything that I feel needs altered to work better for me). And since I don't have a sentimental attachment to SotME, I just choose to reject it. Refreshing my memory of the final battle win which Luke and Leia inexplicably defeat Vader only strengthens my rejection of it. And ADF got the idea for the Kaiburr Crystal from an early daft of Lucas' original single-movie version of Star Wars that had been tossed out by Lucas because he thought the Force worked better as being more abstract, so my use of the idea isn't even really based on this novel. |
To each, their own. I still like to include it, even for sentimentally motivated reasons, and if I can come up with an explanation that makes sense (at least to me) that makes it easier to include, then so be it.
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