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Mikael Hasselstein
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 Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 9:47 pm Post subject: A note on hyperroute distances |
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As you may have read in this thread, I am building an astrogation website that gives estimated travel times between different star systems. As part of that, I am trying to figure out what the distances between each pair of systems that are directly linked by a hyperroute.
This is all fine and dandy, and I'm having a great time. However, where I am breaking my head is the lack of consistency in the published material. Now, I know that a lot of that can be rationalized by gravity wells and adequate data here and there, but some sources are just WAY off one another. The Tapani Sector map (from Lords of the Expanse) has distances between neighboring star systems averaging 1-2 days, whereas according to some you can get from Tatooine to Alderaan in seven hours flat.
So, I'm going to fill this data in however I want, but I'm interested in what your opinions are. How fast do you get from one place to the next? (Yes, the speed of plot, but throw me a bone, here.) |
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Bren
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| Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 10:08 pm Post subject: |
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Speeds vary based on plot. That is the difficulty.
The rationalization: well traveled routes tend to have extremely rapid speeds; many times that of less traveled routes. |
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Fallon Kell
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| Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 10:24 pm Post subject: |
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Just make the decision that results in the least work to make everything else come out right. Since it's fiction, no one can call you wrong!
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Mikael Hasselstein
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Joined: 20 Jul 2011
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| Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 10:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | Speeds vary based on plot. That is the difficulty.
The rationalization: well traveled routes tend to have extremely rapid speeds; many times that of less traveled routes. |
Right, but why should the Tapani sector have such long traveling times? I don't read anything about it being difficult to navigate in my quick perusal of Wookieepedia. It is well-traveled. In fact the Shapani Bypass ought to have more traffic than the parallel Rimma Trade Route.
| Fallon Kell wrote: | | Just make the decision that results in the least work to make everything else come out right. Since it's fiction, no one can call you wrong! |
Sure, but I want my engine to be useful for GMs other than myself - like you. I know that I can do what I want because it's my toy, but I want to know what sort of travel times you guys envision, because there are really radically differing opinions out there.
So, in your mind, how long should it take to get from Tatooine to Alderaan? |
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Fallon Kell
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| Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 10:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Mikael Hasselstein wrote: | | Fallon Kell wrote: | | Just make the decision that results in the least work to make everything else come out right. Since it's fiction, no one can call you wrong! |
Sure, but I want my engine to be useful for GMs other than myself - like you. I know that I can do what I want because it's my toy, but I want to know what sort of travel times you guys envision, because there are really radically differing opinions out there.
So, in your mind, how long should it take to get from Tatooine to Alderaan? |
I figure a month or two to cross the galaxy with a class 1 drive, and without stopping.
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Bren
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| Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 10:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Mikael Hasselstein wrote: | | Bren wrote: | Speeds vary based on plot. That is the difficulty.
The rationalization: well traveled routes tend to have extremely rapid speeds; many times that of less traveled routes. |
Right, but why should the Tapani sector have such long traveling times? I don't read anything about it being difficult to navigate in my quick perusal of Wookieepedia. It is well-traveled. In fact the Shapani Bypass ought to have more traffic than the parallel Rimma Trade Route. |
Let me make three points in reply.
(1) They have long travel times because most of the systems aren't on a well traveled route. The Shapani Bypass is a bypass it goes around stuff. I don't take that to mean it is faster than the main route. The Rimma Trade Route is the main road, the intersystem highway as it were. So it makes sense that travel along it is faster than a side road, even a bypass. My proof that bypass means what I say it does, well the travel times are longer on the bypass, right? 
(2) What are the speeds between the systems on the Shapani Bypass: Achillea, Aleron, Tallaan, Tamber, Alisandor, and Mrlsst? The other systems aren't on even a bypass route so times between those systems could be much, much longer but we would expect the times along the Shapani Bypass, the biggest route in the sector, would be faster. Are they?
(3) If you expect all the travel times to be consistent I think you are doomed to be sorely disappointed. |
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Mikael Hasselstein
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| Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 11:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Fallon Kell wrote: | | I figure a month or two to cross the galaxy with a class 1 drive, and without stopping. |
Okay, I have 33 days along the Hydian Way. That's about right, then.
| Bren wrote: | Let me make three points in reply.
(1) They have long travel times because most of the systems aren't on a well traveled route. The Shapani Bypass is a bypass it goes around stuff. I don't take that to mean it is faster than the main route. The Rimma Trade Route is the main road, the intersystem highway as it were. So it makes sense that travel along it is faster than a side road, even a bypass. My proof that bypass means what I say it does, well the travel times are longer on the bypass, right? |
Sure, but it shouldn't take eight times as long to take the well-traveled Shapani Bypass than the main route along Ghorman, Giju and Dentaal. It's not the idea that the Shapani Bypass would take longer; it's the degree to which it does.
| Bren wrote: | | (2) What are the speeds between the systems on the Shapani Bypass: Achillea, Aleron, Tallaan, Tamber, Alisandor, and Mrlsst? |
You'll find the distances here.
Achillea - Aleron = 28 hours
Aleron - Tallaan = 30 hours
Tallaan - Tamber = 26 hours
Tamber - Alisandor = 46 hours
Alisandor - Mrlsst = 33 hours
So, basically a week from Achillea to Mrlsst, if you're traveling non-stop. That seems a bit excessive to me.
| Bren wrote: | | The other systems aren't on even a bypass route so times between those systems could be much, much longer but we would expect the times along the Shapani Bypass, the biggest route in the sector, would be faster. Are they? |
No, not by much if at all.
| Bren wrote: | | (3) If you expect all the travel times to be consistent I think you are doomed to be sorely disappointed. |
Of course - but I'm trying to get at least some happy medium. According to the likes of the times that were given by a previous attempt by another guy, it ought to take 50 days to travel from the south end of the Rimma Trade Route to the Core (and vice versa). According to the numbers that I currently have worked out it would take roughly eight days (not taking the Shapani Bypass). Which of these seems to accord most with your conceptions? |
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Whill
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 12:14 am Post subject: |
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| Mikael Hasselstein wrote: | | Right, but why should the Tapani sector have such long traveling times? I don't read anything about it being difficult to navigate in my quick perusal of Wookieepedia |
Wookieepedia is incomplete. In the Lord of the Expanse box set, Sector Guide, "Travelling in the Tapani Sector", p. 7, it states:
"some areas of space are so choked with galactic debris and celestial objects that safe hyperspace travel is all but impossible without hyperspace buoys, even in the Imperial era."
I copied this from an e-mail chain between myself and the co-author of the Star Wars Atlas. As much as I love the book, I felt obligated to point out a few errors based on WEG material, and he agreed with me. He was kind enough to not only reply but carry on an e-mail conversation for a while.
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Mikael Hasselstein
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Joined: 20 Jul 2011
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 12:20 am Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | Wookieepedia is incomplete. In the Lord of the Expanse box set, Sector Guide, "Travelling in the Tapani Sector", p. 7, it states:
"some areas of space are so choked with galactic debris and celestial objects that safe hyperspace travel is all but impossible without hyperspace buoys, even in the Imperial era." |
Okay, thanks. I don't have that... or... any other relevant WEG material, really. 
| Whill wrote: | | I copied this from an e-mail chain between myself and the co-author of the Star Wars Atlas. As much as I love the book, I felt obligated to point out a few errors based on WEG material, and he agreed with me. He was kind enough to not only reply but carry on an e-mail conversation for a while. |
Copied what?
What errors did you point out? |
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Whill
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 12:37 pm Post subject: The Star Wars Atlas / The Tapani Sector |
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| Mikael Hasselstein wrote: | | Copied what? |
| Quote: | In the Lord of the Expanse box set, Sector Guide, "Travelling in the Tapani Sector", p. 7, it states:
(1) "some areas of space are so choked with galactic debris and celestial objects that safe hyperspace travel is all but impossible without hyperspace buoys, even in the Imperial era." |
| Mikael Hasselstein wrote: | | What errors did you point out? |
| Quote: | (2) It goes on to say, "The only truly stable route through the sector is the Shapani Bypass." and...
(3) "The Shapani Bypass and Giju Run are the only known exits to the sector."
(4) It ends by alluding to the possibility of a few highly coveted "secret routes" existing.
The Bypass is the only route that goes completely "through" the sector, so the Giju Run may still be considered a "stable" route as it doesn't pass "through" the sector. Shipwrights' Trace begins at Fondor, and also doesn't go completely through the sector, so it could also be a stable route like the Giju Run. No problems there with (2).
The contradiction is mainly with (3). The Shipwrights' Trace would be another exit out of the sector besides the Bypass and the Giju Run. And the Trace can't just start at Fondor and loop around outside of the sector, passing Mrlsst on the south before going east because the Atlas portrays it staying north of Mrlsst as it begins east. |
I don't feel comfortable copying Jason Fry's replies verbatim, but I'll paraphrase/summarize that his solution to this problem was to move the Shipwrights' Trace endpoint to Shapani Bypass just outside of the Tapani Sector, a little south of Mrlsst (where the "To Thyferra" arrow is on the Tapani map). So from a galactic perspective, the Trace will still let you out very near Fondor, and then you just have to take some connecting routes to get to Fondor.
Jason Fry is the author in charge of maitaining "galactographical" continuity within the EU. He's in charge of the updates to the Atlas, and all EU authors are supposed to refer to the Atlas and his updates for writing stories going forward. He said that if there ever is a revised edition of the Atlas published (don't look for that anytime soon), this correction that will appear there. BTW, I had offered several soluition including just accepting the error as a retcon to the WEG material, but he was adament that the WEG Tapani continuity be maintained. He said he personally loves Lord of the Expanse and the Shipwrights' Trace going directly to Fondor was his error for not referring to the WEG Tapani fluff text closely enough when creating the Atlas. I just love how the minute details of WEG continuity was so important to him.
He also pointed out that Fondor has become a very important planet in the EU, and I didn't like that Fondor is somewhat isolated by only having one minor route that goes through a minor system just to connect to the Shapani Bypass, so my Tapani Sector also has a new short but major route connecting Fondor directly to Tallaan. Since both systems are known for their shipyards, and I named it "Shipwrights' Run". And I think that ties it in with the nearby "Shipwrights' Trace" (that no longer goes directly to Fondor to maintain continuity WEG per Jason Fry's correction). And although I haven't come up with any official travel times as you are attempting to do, if you are travelling on the Shipwrights' Trace to get to Fondor, it is actually a little quicker to take the Bypass through Lamuir to Tallaan and hop on the Shipwrights' Run to get to Fondor, than to go turn at Lamuir to go through Sefon on two legs of a minor route to get to Fondor. It may look like the long way around but I see this minor route to be more "choked with galactic debris", so it may be shorter, but not necessarily faster.
So the Shipwrights' Trace connects to the Shapani Bypass which connects to my Shipwrights' Run to Fondor. All major routes to and from a major system. There are a couple possible explanations why the minor route through Sefon even exists in light of my invented major route. It could be that after the original colony at Fondor was established by way of my Run from Tallaan, some hyperspace scouts attempted to forge an even faster route by way of Sefon to get to the Bypass (and also the Trace), but it ended up being too choked with debris to become a major route. Or perhaps the minor route from Lamuir through Sefon was the original route to Fondor from the Bypass, but then later my more direct route was forged from Tallaan to Fondor and after centuries of travel it became a major route thus minimizing the importance of the original minor route. Tallaan and Fondor are both big shipyards so it makes sense for them to be connected and for Fondor to have some major route to connect it to the Shapani Bypass and rest of the galaxy.
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Mikael Hasselstein
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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Oh, this is good material! Thanks!
I think I will, then, keep the times as listed on the Tapani map and add the hyperroutes your post mentions here.
I've not plotted Tapani yet, as I've outsourced that to someone else. But I should be able to add these easily enough, with appropriate times, when the time comes. |
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Mikael Hasselstein
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| Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Hey, I don't have a copy of Truce at Bakura. Can anyone who might have that on their shelf tell me how long the trip took from Endor to Bakura? I'm not sure if that is mentioned, but I'd like to know if it is. |
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