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Bren
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Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
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 Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Also, looting of the enemy troops is ok, looting in general is not! |
You meant looting was not ok, but confiscation of enemy war materials is allowed. Actually I could see the Empire being harder on looting enemy forces than the Alliance. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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I haven't looked it up yet, but Pirates & Privateers might be a good source for guidelines, as it lays out boundaries of behavior for privateers under the Alliance Letter of Marque,
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vanir
Jedi
Joined: 11 May 2011
Posts: 793
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| Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 7:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | I don’t agree. It is precisely a Civil War because it is a rebellion by some of its citizens against what was originally their legitimate central authority. It is not a resistance against an external invasion or threat. In fact the Alliance intentionally describes itself as trying to restore the Republic. In some ways the Rebellion is analogous to the American Revolution (but without the restoration theme) – with the Clone Wars being more analogous to the American Civil War. But both those real world conflicts are internal conflicts, fought between brothers, sisters, and neighbors - hence civil wars.
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You'll have to excuse me from this Americentric view. The SWU Galactic Empire is clearly based on Nazi Germany as a central theme, with space combat loosely based on the War in the Pacific as a central theme.
Not the American Civil War, not the American (ahem) "revolution". There are no parallels there. |
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Bren
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| Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 9:59 pm Post subject: |
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| vanir wrote: | You'll have to excuse me from this Americentric view. The SWU Galactic Empire is clearly based on Nazi Germany as a central theme, with space combat loosely based on the War in the Pacific as a central theme.
Not the American Civil War, not the American (ahem) "revolution". There are no parallels there. |
And you base your conclusion that the conflicts in Star Wars have nothing to do with American history on what exactly?
Parallels to the American Revolution are quite clear in the EU source material - The Adventure Journal #10 story Only Droids Serves the Maker explicitly uses quotes from John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, and Thomas Paine for an alien rebel group. Adams, Jefferson, and Payne, for those less Americentric, were some of the leading lights of the American Revolution. The Formal Declaration of Rebellion on page 13 of the Rebel Alliance Sourcebook speaks of an "inalienable right" of free beings to abolish a government that usurps their rights, lists a set of grievances against the Galactic Empire, and the signers "pledge our property, our honor and our lives" to oppose the Galactic Empire. This is clearly cribbed from the American Declaration of Independence. The Rebellion looks to the American Revolution for philosophy and quotations.
The characterization of the Clone Wars as being between separatists who wished to break away from the Galactic Republic and maintenance of the union of the Republic clearly parallels the American Civil War. The fact that in AotC the clone army is called the Grand Army of the Republic - which was the name given to the Union forces in the American Civil War, and the insistence by Palpatine in the novelization of Revenge of the Sith on unconditional surrender by the Separatists clearly parallels the demand for Unconditional Surrender by Ulysses S. Grant. The Clone Wars is clearly based, in part, on the American Civil War.
Now, please tell us why this is only about Nazi Germany.
As a side note, accusing others of being limited to an "Americentric view" in the complete absence of evidence is offensive. |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14326
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Stormtroopers: Unless ordered to take prisoners, I suspect stormtroopers routinely take very few prisoners - excepting PCs of course. Wink |
With me, they only take prisoners if ordered too.. regardless of whom it is.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 12:33 am Post subject: |
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| vanir wrote: | | Quote: | I don’t agree. It is precisely a Civil War because it is a rebellion by some of its citizens against what was originally their legitimate central authority. It is not a resistance against an external invasion or threat. In fact the Alliance intentionally describes itself as trying to restore the Republic. In some ways the Rebellion is analogous to the American Revolution (but without the restoration theme) – with the Clone Wars being more analogous to the American Civil War. But both those real world conflicts are internal conflicts, fought between brothers, sisters, and neighbors - hence civil wars.
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You'll have to excuse me from this Americentric view... There are no parallels there. |
No parallels? George Lucas himself (an American) has explicitely stated there were. But no one is saying that there is only American symbolism in SW...
| Bren wrote: | And you base your conclusion that the conflicts in Star Wars have nothing to do with American history on what exactly?
Parallels to the American Revolution are quite clear in the EU source material - The Adventure Journal #10 story Only Droids Serves the Maker explicitly uses quotes from John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, and Thomas Paine for an alien rebel group. Adams, Jefferson, and Payne, for those less Americentric, were some of the leading lights of the American Revolution. The Formal Declaration of Rebellion on page 13 of the Rebel Alliance Sourcebook speaks of an "inalienable right" of free beings to abolish a government that usurps their rights, lists a set of grievances against the Galactic Empire, and the signers "pledge our property, our honor and our lives" to oppose the Galactic Empire. This is clearly cribbed from the American Declaration of Independence. The Rebellion looks to the American Revolution for philosophy and quotations. |
All true. Not only in the EU, but also in the films themselves. Most Imperial officers have a British accent, etc.
| Bren wrote: | | The characterization of the Clone Wars as being between separatists who wished to break away from the Galactic Republic and maintenance of the union of the Republic clearly parallels the American Civil War. The fact that in AotC the clone army is called the Grand Army of the Republic - which was the name given to the Union forces in the American Civil War, and the insistence by Palpatine in the novelization of Revenge of the Sith on unconditional surrender by the Separatists clearly parallels the demand for Unconditional Surrender by Ulysses S. Grant. The Clone Wars is clearly based, in part, on the American Civil War. |
Yes. The Confederate States of America (C.S.A.) was also known as the pro-secessionists, the Confederacy, the Confederate States.
The Confederacy of Independent Systems (C.I.S.) is also known as the pro-secessionists, the Confederacy, the Separatist Confederacy.
The CSA supported slavery for ecomonic reasons (it is cheaper to not pay your workers).
The CIS (and the component Trade Federation) was clearly shown to be overtly fighting for economic freedoms, and were the masters of robotic slaves.
The American Civil War symbolism is pretty obvious, at least to Americans.
| Bren wrote: | | Now, please tell us why this is only about Nazi Germany. |
Sure, the Empire is Nazi Germany and the Alliance is the Allied powers. No doubt. But the Empire is also the Roman Empire. And even America in some ways! Yes, the Empire can be both Britain in the American Revolution and America in its imperial phase. Just like the Separatists are both the mid-1800s American South and the dark side of free enterprise in the capitalistic aspects of modern America. There are a multiplicity of specific parallels but those are also intended to further symbolize human history in general. The Empire is every tyranical regime, and the Rebels are every revolutionaries. From a certain point of view.
| Bren wrote: | | As a side note, accusing others of being limited to an "Americentric view" in the complete absence of evidence is offensive. |
Although I prefer to give you the benefit of the doubt in the notion that the term "Americentric" may possibly be used objectively, your use of the term here in your presentation of such an incorrect conclusion does come across as offensive, and anti-American. Of course you are free to hold any anti-American views you wish (and I may even agree with some of them), but I would suggest keeping those to yourself (even we Americans would be wise not to get too deeply involved in a discussion on politics on a Star Wars RPG board). You being perceived as antagonistic towards Americans on this board is not logical if you are interested in successfully communicating and sharing ideas with others here.
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vanir
Jedi
Joined: 11 May 2011
Posts: 793
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| Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 12:40 am Post subject: |
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Nevertheless you'll simply have to excuse me from this Americentric view. Star Wars is loosely based on WW2 Nazism in Germany, it is plain and simple. We can explore our individual inspirations until the cows come home but the original themes are what they are. This question was put to George Lucas in 1979 and he answered it. There you go.
e.t.a. he said (paraphrasing), "Star Wars is obviously, loosely based on Nazi German themes, the helmets, the Stormtroopers, yes, Nazi Germany was a major inspiration." (he then continues to explain his drawing from many historical elements such as eastern mythologies and Arthurian legend for the Jedi Knights and extrapolates that the Galactic Empire represents any totalitarian dictatorship)
does a totalitarian dictatorship describe the American Civil War? |
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Bren
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| Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 1:22 am Post subject: |
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| Vanir wrote: | | does a totalitarian dictatorship describe the American Civil War? |
No. But then I never said it did. I said the Clone Wars was in part inspired by the American Civil War. I said that the Rebellion and the Rebel Alliance was in part inspired by the American Revolution. The American Revolution was where a bunch of ordinary folks got together to overthrow what they felt was a tyrannical rule. What started out as an irregular army of rag-tag rebels were eventually able to defeat what was perhaps the best army in Europe and win their freedom to form a Republic.
It does help if you actually read what I write before criticizing.
Let me pose two more appropriate questions to you. Was the Nazi regime overthrown by an internal Rebellion of its own people like the Empire in Star Wars? Was Hitler, like Palpatine, killed by a member of his own inner circle?
| vanir wrote: | | Nevertheless you'll simply have to excuse me from this Americentric view. |
Actually I don't have to excuse your poor manners. Your arguments, such as they are, are weak and unconvincing. You ignore facts you find inconvenient and making sweeping and unsupportable statements. You then toss off baseless and unfounded ad hominem attacks at anyone who doesn't agree with your overly simplistic view of Star Wars. I find that inexcusable. |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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Fallon Kell
Commodore
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Location: Tacoma, WA
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| Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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Wait a minute here! George Lucas was an American! He wasn't even a particularly wise person at the time. He was a young filmmaker who thought a parsec was a unit of time, rather than distance!
So why is an Americentric view of Star Wars incorrect!? To proclaim otherwise would be like saying "God is not a Republican," in a universe where God was a Republican!
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Kemper Boyd
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Bren
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| Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 7:56 am Post subject: |
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Interesting piece. Thanks for sharing.  You seem to have given your system quite a bit of thought. If you haven't already done so, you might want to look at the link to the Geneva conventions, unless the POWs are paid for their work, Pratt Island may not comply with our world's Geneva Conventions. I'd also wonder whether lack of communal privileges could be construed as communal punishment - which I believe is a Geneva Convention violation. Of course I am neither a lawyer nor an expert on the Geneva Accords.
Also, thank you for returning us to the actual topic.  |
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Kemper Boyd
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Joined: 28 Jun 2008
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| Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | Thanks for sharing. You seem to have given your system quite a bit of thought. If you haven't already done so, you might want to look at the link to the Geneva conventions, unless the POWs are paid for their work, Pratt Island may not comply with our world's Geneva Conventions. I'd also wonder whether lack of communal privileges could be construed as communal punishment - which I believe is a Geneva Convention violation. Of course I am neither a lawyer nor an expert on the Geneva Accords. |
The theme of my campaign is "cynic idealism": former Imperials who stopped believing in the New Order and now want to create something different. The treatment of POW's stems from the practical considerations of that idea: its a mix of what's practical and what's right. The basic problem that a separatist group faces is that it can't at this point (the campaign starts a bit after the Battle of Yavin) release any Imperial prisoners since the Empire will not accept parole or anything like it. So, Imperial POW's will remain POW's until they either defect or the Empire collapses to a sufficient degree. |
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Bren
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Kemper Boyd wrote: | | The theme of my campaign is "cynic idealism": former Imperials who stopped believing in the New Order and now want to create something different. The treatment of POW's stems from the practical considerations of that idea: its a mix of what's practical and what's right. The basic problem that a separatist group faces is that it can't at this point (the campaign starts a bit after the Battle of Yavin) release any Imperial prisoners since the Empire will not accept parole or anything like it. So, Imperial POW's will remain POW's until they either defect or the Empire collapses to a sufficient degree. |
I agree prisoners are an issue for anti-Imperial forces. But long term retention of POWs may not be the best solution. From a practical standpoint, the Empire so outnumbers the Rebellion in manpower, that returning prisoners to the Empire has little practical impact from a manpower perspective. But the value of returning Imperial prisoners includes the following.
(1) It falsifies Imperial propaganda claiming that Rebels don't take prisoners, torture prisoners, etc.
(2) It places the burden of food, clothing, shelter, reprocessing, transportation, and the inevitable Imperial security checks back on the Imperials.
(3) It provides an opportunity to slip Rebel infiltrators in along with the returing POWs.
(4) This sets up a catch-22 for the Empire. Weak security checks on returnees makes it easy for the Rebels to slip in infiltrators. Strong security checks that may catch the infiltrators have a strong likelihood of building resentment of Imperial security in the real returnees.
(5) It frees up Rebel troops to fight the Empire rather than guarding prisoners.
(6) It plans the idea in the comrades of the returnees that surrender is a safe and viable option and shows that surrender won't necessarily involve internment and separation from ones friends and family for the duration of the conflict. This makes it more likely that Imperials will surrender in the future.
(7) Even though parole is not recognized by the Empire, asking and getting parole from prisoners may have a moral impact on the returning POWs which causes them to not work as hard for the Empire once returned.
Just some thoughts. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 12:37 pm Post subject: |
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All excellent points, plus I very much doubt the Alliance is sending them back to the Empire with all of their weapons and equipment, so captured enemy troops would be something of a boon for the Alliance from a logistical standpoint.
Naturally, exceptions would need to be made for prisoners who have potentially damaging knowledge that the Alliance couldn't risk falling into the hands of the Empire. Those would be the Imperial personnel who would be stranded in POW camps on Alliance safe worlds.
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