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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
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Location: Maryland, USA
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 Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Gamer wrote: | suicide or self sacrifice call it what you will.
But if you think that a soldier wouldn't do it for those he fights next to, then stay off the battlefield. |
OK. So that's one vote for Rebel suicide bombers. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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I recall mention somewhere of a unit called the Alderaan Death Legion (or something to that effect), which was a group of Alderaan survivors who only accepted the most hazardous assignments. IIRC, they were the gunnery crew that manned the ion cannon on Hoth, and stayed behind to cover the fleet's evacuation, then fighting to the death. A suicide bombing mission against a military target might just be something a unit like that would take on...
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Lostboy
Commander
Joined: 22 Aug 2008
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| Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Remember that nuclear explosions in space aren't nearly as destructive as ones in an atmosphere. Also, there will be no real EMP pulse in deep space.
Edit: remembered I had a physicist friend nearby. He said that considering average nuke size, the plasma from the explosion loses most of it's destructive capacity after about 20-30 meters, and the radiation pulse over a distance of approximately one kilometer. To get a real effect, you need a penetrating warhead like a modern bunker buster. |
I'm not sure where your friend learned science but an EMP would be more effective in space not less and the plasma is not the most destructive part the hard radiation is and concussion wave is a close second. That being said the plasma temperature and density affect it destructive capacity but it would be propelled away from the primary blast by the radiation and concussion wave.
The extreme low temperature of deep space would lessen the effective blast radius, still what yield do you consider average for a nuke? |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Lostboy wrote: | | Quote: | | Doubt that. Most US ships are made to withstand internal explosions almost as much as external ones. |
Nuclear explosions? |
Doubt much we have here on earth would withstand it internally.
| Ankhanu wrote: | they also generate a pretty intense EMP, which would act like an ion cannon blast, shutting the ship down pretty effectively.
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IMO the EMP effect is more destructive than ion cannons..
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Fallon Kell
Commodore
Joined: 07 Mar 2011
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Location: Tacoma, WA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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Most sources I can find list the yield of turbolaser blasts in the tens or hundreds of megatons per bolt range. Some of the larger ones are gigatons per bolt, I think. A standard uranium, plutonium, or hydrogen bomb such as we have on earth wouldn't be all that effective against a Star Destroyer.
That said, in Star Wars, they have better nukes. They use baradium, which apparently blows up bigger than hydrogen fusion warheads. Seismic charges utilize a baradium-collapsium compound, and seem to have a vast area of devastation.
I'd also like to point out that the upper limit on the size of a hydrogen warhead is a massive exploding star like Eta Carinae, which is certainly enough to destroy an ISD. As a rough estimate, if you had a hydrogen bomb the size of a small or medium ship, it probably would blow up a Star Destroyer.
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Kemper Boyd
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Joined: 28 Jun 2008
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| Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Lostboy wrote: | I'm not sure where your friend learned science but an EMP would be more effective in space not less and the plasma is not the most destructive part the hard radiation is and concussion wave is a close second. That being said the plasma temperature and density affect it destructive capacity but it would be propelled away from the primary blast by the radiation and concussion wave.
The extreme low temperature of deep space would lessen the effective blast radius, still what yield do you consider average for a nuke? |
First, there is no atmosphere in space to carry the EMP pulse and no concussion wave either for the same reason. All you get is a short-range plasma burst and a radiation wave.
We were thinking about modern ICBM warheads, something in the 400 kt range. Of course, you could use a larger device but still, nukes in space aren't just that destructive when compared to nukes in an atmosphere. |
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Fallon Kell
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| Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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First, there is no atmosphere in space to carry the EMP pulse and no concussion wave either for the same reason. All you get is a short-range plasma burst and a radiation wave.
We were thinking about modern ICBM warheads, something in the 400 kt range. Of course, you could use a larger device but still, nukes in space aren't just that destructive when compared to nukes in an atmosphere.[/quote]
I think the reason that nukes are less destructive in space is that there's less to destroy in space. There's no air to carry the shock wave, but the thermal energy that creates the shock wave in the first place can now make it directly to the target and do it's work there. Plus, without an atmosphere, that plasma ball is going to spread, and keep on spreading, and not cool down for a very long time.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Kemper Boyd wrote: | | First, there is no atmosphere in space to carry the EMP pulse and no concussion wave either for the same reason. All you get is a short-range plasma burst and a radiation wave. |
Since it is energy, EMP does not need an atmosphere to transmit it. IIRC, a nuke detonated in a vacuum (i.e. without an atmosphere to contain it) converts much of its energy to EMP. If it is in an atmosphere, the energy release is converted into the fireball and the blast wave. That's one of the old Cold War fears: fractional orbital bombardment (detonating a nuke in space directly above the United States, just outside the atmosphere). The resulting EMP would wipe out most electronics and communications in North America. In fact, that may be how EMP cluster bombs work (in the ImpSB).
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Fallon Kell
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| Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Since it is energy, EMP does not need an atmosphere to transmit it. IIRC, a nuke detonated in a vacuum (i.e. without an atmosphere to contain it) converts much of its energy to EMP. If it is in an atmosphere, the energy release is converted into the fireball and the blast wave. That's one of the old Cold War fears: fractional orbital bombardment (detonating a nuke in space directly above the United States, just outside the atmosphere). The resulting EMP would wipe out most electronics and communications in North America. In fact, that may be how EMP cluster bombs work (in the ImpSB). |
Some physicist please correct me if I'm wrong, but to my knowledge, an EMP travels as EM radiation (microwave, radio, x-rays, gamma rays and light) until it hits an atmosphere, which converts it into an electrical pulse that can disable electronics. Ergo, with no atmosphere, there's no EMP blackout effect.
That's also why the fractional orbital bombardment occurs outside of the atmosphere. So the EMP can spread away from the detonation in space before it hits the atmosphere and becomes a current.
I'm not absolutely certain on this, but I'm pretty sure I read just that in a Popular Science article a few years ago. Does anyone know for sure?
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ZzaphodD
Rear Admiral
Joined: 28 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Hellcat wrote: | | However, a warhead detonated within an ImpStar, now that's a different story. The ImpStar Invincible was destroyed by a single nuclear warhead planted within the ship during Operation Strike Fear. |
Which raises an interesting question. Usually, the given damage for an explosive is for detonating on the outer surface of a target, but what if it is inside? What if the heroes smuggle a bomb onto a Star Destroyer that is based on a proton torpedo or concussion missile warhead? How much will the damage differ by being contained inside the mass of a ship? After all, a ship may be designed to absorb damage inflicted from without, but the designers may not have paid as much attention to damage inflicted from within. |
Remember my old Traveller (the little black books, yes Im that old) days... One of the best weapons were Meson guns which exploded inside the target (hard to target though as you had to time where the explosion was going to take place). 
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Bren
Vice Admiral
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| Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | | Remember my old Traveller (the little black books, yes Im that old) days... |
Ah, the little old black books. 8) I remember them well. But then compared to me Z you are still youthful. I'm positively ancient. I got my original D&D little biege books in the brown box back in 1974.  |
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Lostboy
Commander
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| Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 12:53 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Some physicist please correct me if I'm wrong, but to my knowledge, an EMP travels as EM radiation (microwave, radio, x-rays, gamma rays and light) until it hits an atmosphere, which converts it into an electrical pulse that can disable electronics. Ergo, with no atmosphere, there's no EMP blackout effect.
That's also why the fractional orbital bombardment occurs outside of the atmosphere. So the EMP can spread away from the detonation in space before it hits the atmosphere and becomes a current. |
The pulse interacts with any partials and matter they encounter. Star ships are made of matter. |
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Fallon Kell
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Joined: 07 Mar 2011
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Location: Tacoma, WA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 3:06 am Post subject: |
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| Lostboy wrote: | | Quote: | Some physicist please correct me if I'm wrong, but to my knowledge, an EMP travels as EM radiation (microwave, radio, x-rays, gamma rays and light) until it hits an atmosphere, which converts it into an electrical pulse that can disable electronics. Ergo, with no atmosphere, there's no EMP blackout effect.
That's also why the fractional orbital bombardment occurs outside of the atmosphere. So the EMP can spread away from the detonation in space before it hits the atmosphere and becomes a current. |
The pulse interacts with any partials and matter they encounter. Star ships are made of matter. |
That's what I thought, but the article seemed to be pretty specific about the effects being dependent on the atmosphere. Are you a physicist or someone else who would know for sure, or just a nerd on the internet like me? 
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Lostboy
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| Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 3:56 am Post subject: |
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I am not a professional Physicist no but i have a Bachelor of science and i have take specialist courses in Physics, Astrophysics and materials science, plus a few others that aren't relevant to this conversation.
I do not however hold my opinion as the only one, I posted this thread to spark debate and learn what others think. After all we are talking in the context of the star wars universe where science is hand waved and the because we say so option is used to explain more that a few things. |
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Praxian
Lieutenant Commander
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| Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 2:52 pm Post subject: |
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One of the other things I would think, is that most shields / hulls would be "Regular" damage vs a nuclear weapon. Nuclear technology would be around TL 8'ish for stuff. Figure Star Wars would be High TL 9 to at the most mid TL 10. While we don't see much in the way of Nukes being used as weapons, it may simply be because using the lower TL stuff is more than compensated and covered in the newer edge stuff.
Also, keep in mind, they're not going to let some lower Tech weapons take apart they're more powerful more efficient equipment. Say the Empire made a pit stop above our planet and we manage to get a nuke up there. The ship would likely not make that much of a dent on an exterior explosion. Internally, it may do some damage, but I would think that they're using Nuclear plants in 90% (more personally) of the ships being used. With that in mind, the most simple civilian has probably had some sort of NBC training in case of a power plant failure on board the space ships.
Just my 2 creds though. |
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