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Bren Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010 Posts: 3868 Location: Maryland, USA
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Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 11:56 am Post subject: Just War doctrine |
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Over on the Ship and Equipment thread the question came up of whether Rebels would essentially act as suicide bombers. That led me to think about just war or jus in bello doctrine. Standford http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/war/ has a nice synopis from which I drew heavily for the text below.
Just War - Jus in Bello
Jus in bello refers to justice in war, to right conduct in the midst of battle. Which includes external jus in bello – the rules a state should observe regarding the enemy and its armed forces and internal jus in bello – the rules a state must follow in connection with its own people as it fights war against an external enemy. Since the Rebellion is actually a civil war one interpretation would say there is no true external enemy which would make internal rules apply at least to all the civilian populations of Imperial held systems.
There are several rules of external jus in bello:
1. Obey all international laws on weapons prohibition. Some weapons are too awful to use.
2. Discrimination and Non-Combatant Immunity. Soldiers are only entitled to use their (non-prohibited) weapons to target those who are “engaged in harm.” When they take aim, soldiers must discriminate between the civilian population and those legitimate military, political and industrial targets involved in rights-violating harm.
3. Proportionality. Soldiers may only use force proportional to the end they seek.
4. Benevolent quarantine for prisoners of war (POWs). If enemy soldiers surrender and become captives, they cease being lethal threats to basic rights. They are no longer “engaged in harm.” It is wrong to target them with death, starvation, rape, torture, medical experimentation, and so on.
5. No Means Mala in Se. Soldiers may not use weapons or methods which are “evil in themselves.”
6. No reprisals. A reprisal is when country A violates jus in bello in war with country B. Country B then retaliates with its own violation of jus in bello, seeking to chasten A into obeying the rules.
Internal jus in bello essentially boils down to the need for a state, even though it's involved in a war, nevertheless to still respect the human rights of its own citizens as best it can during the crisis. The following issues arise:
Is it just to impose conscription, or press censorship?
Can one curtail traditional civil liberties, and due process protections, for perceived gains in national security?
Should elections be cancelled or postponed?
May soldiers disobey orders, e.g. refuse to fight in wars they believe unjust?
In my universe, the Rebel Alliance led by Mon Mothma officially follows these rules. But smaller Rebel groups that are not under the Alliance's control may not. And individual Rebels even in the Alliance may violate one or more of these rules.
So how do your Rebels behave? What rules do they follow? |
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Kemper Boyd Sub-Lieutenant
Joined: 28 Jun 2008 Posts: 68
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Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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In my New Separatists game, the core of the Alliance is rather well-led under Mon Mothma and she keeps the hard-liners in check very efficiently. However, Sector forces or smaller resistance groups which are namely part of the Alliance, aren't always as moral. For instance, the resistance on Botajef uses suicide bombings and attacks Imperial civilian targets indiscriminately.
The Rebel Alliance doesn't have much need for censorship or curtailing the freedom of the press, because they are unable to do so even if they'd want to. There is no formal conscription, the Alliance doesn't operate as a democratic institution for the duration of the Galactic Civil War (remember, this is what drove Garm Bel Iblis away) but this of course is certainly in line with the founding principles of the Alliance, and the Chief of State can be impeached by the advisory council.
Some officers of the Alliance think this binds their hands too much, and as an example, General Airen Cracken in my campaign technically commits high treason several times due to him passing on information to the Federation of Independent Worlds, whenever he thinks Mon Mothma will not allow some specific course of action. |
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CRMcNeill Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010 Posts: 16281 Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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There is also the Justice Action Network, as mentioned in the Lords of the Expanse boxed set. They oppose the Empire as well, but they fit the definition of a terrorist group, using bombings, kidnappings, assassinations and such.
That brings up a question. Using precision methods (such as sniping) to eliminate an enemy officer makes good tactical sense; killing the enemy commander and as many of his subordinates as possible to throw the enemy force into confusion at a critical moment in battle is an accepted combat technique. IIRC, American military doctrine is to do just that; take out the commander to put his subordinates off balance so that they can be defeated with greater ease.
So, at what point does that become assassination? Is it limited to strictly military personnel? But what if an Imperial governor is about to give an order for genocide operations against an alien population and someone slips poison into his morning caf? At what point in the SWU does a surgical strike against high ranking enemy personnel become an assassination? _________________ "No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Fallon Kell Commodore
Joined: 07 Mar 2011 Posts: 1846 Location: Tacoma, WA
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Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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My Rebels fight to win, but they remember why they're fighting. They'll do just about anything to a squad of stormtroopers if they have to, so long as they aren't hurting civilians. Assassinations, kidnappings, piracy, and bombings of military or political targets are on the table, but they won't do something like place a bomb on a parade route to kill a moff, where it will also kill two dozen civilians. Instead, they would be more likely to smuggle a bomb into a moff's office, if they could, in an attempt to eliminate collateral damage. _________________ Or that excessively long "Noooooooooo" was the Whining Side of the Force leaving him. - Dustflier
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garhkal Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 14168 Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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Sniping a mil target is IMO different from assassinating a NOn mil target (such as a political figure)..
As to me, i try to run it where the rebels are sworn to this, but some do push the bubble of what is right and wrong.. _________________ Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
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CRMcNeill Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010 Posts: 16281 Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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garhkal wrote: | Sniping a mil target is IMO different from assassinating a NOn mil target (such as a political figure).. |
I agree, but the line between military and non-military is not as clear with the Empire as it might be with other societies. _________________ "No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Fallon Kell Commodore
Joined: 07 Mar 2011 Posts: 1846 Location: Tacoma, WA
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Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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garhkal wrote: | Sniping a mil target is IMO different from assassinating a Non mil target (such as a political figure)... |
I've been reading a history of WWII written by Winston Churchill, in which it's pretty clear that the political figures leading Britain (Churchill, Eden, and others) were heavily involved in strategic decisions. Even ministers of finance and transportation were making efforts as vital as any general's to support the war. In America, the President is the Commander in Chief. "Civilian" governmental targets are often also valid military targets. _________________ Or that excessively long "Noooooooooo" was the Whining Side of the Force leaving him. - Dustflier
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garhkal Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 14168 Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 11:51 pm Post subject: |
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That be true.. _________________ Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
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vanir Jedi
Joined: 11 May 2011 Posts: 793
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Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 9:02 am Post subject: |
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ouchie, definitely want to avoid a Dresden debate on an rpg board, as a somewhat military historian I'll get way too involved so will stick entirely to the fictional setting of SWU/Galactic Civil War.
After all, this is my escape from all that real world research, too much of it on any side of any argument or just standing by the sidelines is really depressing. Real lives are involved, the subject breeches Holocaust/historical-atrocity, one should largely reserve the subject for its own dedicated forums. I might suggest the Axis History Forum, it has a lot of very well researched and celebrated experts on the subject. The Luftwaffe Experten board for example specifically prohibits discussion of the holocaust and atrocities in keeping its dedicated technological emphasis without politics involved. You get the idea.
In terms of the Galactic Civil War, one should remember that it is only a civil war in terms of a galactic civilisation, in the same way one might consider any combat between humans IRL to be in fact a civil war within a world community with ultimately common personal goals among individuals, life and an interpretation of liberty, protecting families, etc.
In this sense the theatrical presentation of the galactic civilisation is idealistic the same way Star Trek is idealistic about abolishing monetary economics. In reality, as exhibited by various political leanings worldwide and throughout history, to abolish one industrial system serves only to create a void into which another readily steps in to fill, whether it be a sociopolitical emphasis rather than socioeconomic, or some other.
I infer that individual planetary systems or conglomerates will effectively alienate unwarranted or unlawful government as foreign influences. Ergo to the Rebel Alliance the Galactic Empire represents a totalitarian state imposed by a foreign power. |
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CRMcNeill Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010 Posts: 16281 Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:47 am Post subject: |
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Considering we don't know what the rules of war are in the SWU, is it reasonable to assume that they bear some similarity to the rules of the Geneva Convention, as well as the other associated treaties of the "civilized" world? _________________ "No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Bren Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010 Posts: 3868 Location: Maryland, USA
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Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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Rules of war is a topic I find interesting and I’m glad to see other folks have considered what the rules of war look like for the Rebellion. This will be a series of thoughts based on the comments so far.
Kemper Boyd wrote: | In my New Separatists game… |
KB, sounds like your view is similar to mine, with Alliance control of the central forces, but a lot more looseness in Sector forces and smaller groups. We have a group of Death Commando freedom fighters on a desert planet we created for Elrood Sector called Sidron. When they become a Death Commando they tattoo a particular mark on their face and they add another mark for each Imperial they personally kill. They are somewhat similar to the Juramentado in Philippine history but with more of a Middle Eastern flavor due to the desert robes and such and they look like the Magi in the Mummy films.
Regarding the press, the Rebellion does have access to some renegade broadcast facilities, but I tend to agree that they are most concerned with getting their message out. I’m undecided on conscription. It does seem like Rebels are usually volunteers. Rather than conscription of people the hot button issue for the Rebellion may be enforced taxation or contributions. How do the Rebels get supplies and how does the Alliance pay for supplies and for their troops? Our Sector Rebel group (the Union) has its own currency called U-credits or U-creds for short. Essentially they are a form of unsecured promissory note.
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crmcneill wrote: | There is also the Justice Action Network… | Good reminder on the JAN.
crmcneill wrote: | That brings up a question. Using precision methods (such as sniping) to eliminate an enemy officer makes good tactical sense; killing the enemy commander and as many of his subordinates as possible to throw the enemy force into confusion at a critical moment in battle is an accepted combat technique…So, at what point does that become assassination? Is it limited to strictly military personnel? But what if an Imperial governor is about to give an order for genocide operations against an alien population and someone slips poison into his morning caf? At what point in the SWU does a surgical strike against high ranking enemy personnel become an assassination? | The background for Kaiya Adrimetrum (captain of the FarStar in the Kathol Rift scenarios) included her killing the Imperial Governor of her home planet by blowing up his house. Afterward she joins Page’s Commandos and then still later becomes acting Captain of the FarStar.
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Fallon Kell wrote: | My Rebels fight to win, but they remember why they're fighting…they won't do something like place a bomb on a parade route to kill a moff, where it will also kill two dozen civilians. Instead, they would be more likely to smuggle a bomb into a moff's office, if they could, in an attempt to eliminate collateral damage. | Nice practical examples, Fallon Kell. What if there are non-imperial offices in the same building? How much collateral damage is OK? Is there problem with the parade route the 24 casualties or the fact that the killing is done publicly in front of lots of witnesses who now wonder if they are the next piece of collateral damage?
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Fallon Kell wrote: | garhkal wrote: | Sniping a mil target is IMO different from assassinating a Non mil target (such as a political figure)... |
I've been reading a history of WWII written by Winston Churchill, in which it's pretty clear that the political figures leading Britain (Churchill, Eden, and others) were heavily involved in strategic decisions. Even ministers of finance and transportation were making efforts as vital as any general's to support the war. In America, the President is the Commander in Chief. "Civilian" governmental targets are often also valid military targets. | And like the US President Imperial Moff is both a governmental and a military command position.
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vanir wrote: | ouchie, definitely want to avoid a Dresden debate on an rpg board, as a somewhat military historian I'll get way too involved so will stick entirely to the fictional setting of SWU/Galactic Civil War. | While I don’t intend to specifically debate the ethics of firebombing in WWII, the ethics of collateral damage is one of the key concerns of the Just War.
vanir wrote: | In terms of the Galactic Civil War, one should remember that it is only a civil war in terms of a galactic civilisation, in the same way one might consider any combat between humans IRL to be in fact a civil war within a world community with ultimately common personal goals among individuals, life and an interpretation of liberty, protecting families, etc…I infer that individual planetary systems or conglomerates will effectively alienate unwarranted or unlawful government as foreign influences. Ergo to the Rebel Alliance the Galactic Empire represents a totalitarian state imposed by a foreign power | I don’t agree. It is precisely a Civil War because it is a rebellion by some of its citizens against what was originally their legitimate central authority. It is not a resistance against an external invasion or threat. In fact the Alliance intentionally describes itself as trying to restore the Republic. In some ways the Rebellion is analogous to the American Revolution (but without the restoration theme) – with the Clone Wars being more analogous to the American Civil War. But both those real world conflicts are internal conflicts, fought between brothers, sisters, and neighbors - hence civil wars.
crmcneill wrote: | Considering we don't know what the rules of war are in the SWU, is it reasonable to assume that they bear some similarity to the rules of the Geneva Convention, as well as the other associated treaties of the "civilized" world? | Good question. I haven’t actually read the Geneva Convention. I would expect that the Republic must have had some sort of rules of war. The Empire seems a bit more ruthless. One reason I look at the Just War doctrine is it has a longer history than the Geneva Convention and aspects have been used by both Christian and non-Christian societies. Also it is a lot shorter than wading through the entire Geneva Convention.
An interesting related question is does the Imperial Military (especially the Army and Navy which are a bit less directly controlled by Palpatine and COMPNOR) recognize Rebel Military personnel in uniform as having any POW protections or are they considered simply terrorists and criminals without any explicit military protections. I tend to think of them as being treated by most of the military like POWs in the American Civil War. As a Rebel you would much rather surrender to the Imperial Army or Navy than to stormtroopers or to CompForce. |
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cheshire Arbiter-General (Moderator)
Joined: 04 Jan 2004 Posts: 4849
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Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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Fallon Kell wrote: | garhkal wrote: | Sniping a mil target is IMO different from assassinating a Non mil target (such as a political figure)... |
I've been reading a history of WWII written by Winston Churchill, in which it's pretty clear that the political figures leading Britain (Churchill, Eden, and others) were heavily involved in strategic decisions. Even ministers of finance and transportation were making efforts as vital as any general's to support the war. In America, the President is the Commander in Chief. "Civilian" governmental targets are often also valid military targets. |
Though they are heavily involved there are a number of things to consider. First is that our state governors may be analogous to Moffs in Star Wars (though the analogy will break down at some point). They have general control over their state and have considerable power and influence over that area. However, unlike a Moff they don't each have a squad of stormtroopers that they can dispatch at their will. The point being, our politicians are mostly just that, politicians, and though people like senators and congressmen may be privy to classified information, eliminating them will do disproportionate harm to the integrity of the civilian populace when compared to the military gain. Taking it one step further, the assassination of a president during wartime would cause a strategic disruption for the military operation, though it does more harm to the integrity of the civilian operations than it does harm to the military operations. Furthermore, there is an innate harm to doing high-level targeted assassinations. Particularly and especially when there is a greater conjunction between the military and political leadership than there is in our country, assassinating the leader leaves few people in a position to "turn the war off" and sign a treaty to end the conflict. One of the things that put the Star Wars galaxy in a real bind was precisely that once the Emperor was dead, the question of who was in direct control was left in question. It allowed several warlords to bicker and pick up the pieces for a generation.
Sniping a commander or general leaves a distinct military advantage while still leaving enough organizational integrity for treaties to be signed and end the conflict.
I'm willing to hear other ideas on this. Just War is always one of those doctrines that sounds clear and simple on paper, but the application is always more difficult than it sounds. _________________ __________________________________
Before we take any of this too seriously, just remember that in the middle episode a little rubber puppet moves a spaceship with his mind. |
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CRMcNeill Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010 Posts: 16281 Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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Well, reading from the Rebel Alliance Sourcebook, I can offer a few facts:
1). Mon Mothma, as the head of the Alliance, is diametrically opposed to assassinations, but does approve them on occasion, including several attempts on Darth Vader
2). Alliance interrogators are forbidden by law from using torture as an interrogation technique
3). Imperial personnel captured by the Alliance are generally not killed, and are in stead dropped into isolated POW camps on Alliance safe worlds, far from any Alliance facilities on the planet, and given a bare minimum of supplies to survive on.
4). Alliance Counter-Intelligence's Retrieval division does, on occasion, execute captured Imperial infiltrators, but only when the infiltrator is in possession of information that would be highly damaging to the Alliance, as mindwipe and personality reconstruction are illegal in the Alliance
5). Mon Mothma has strategic command over the Alliance as a whole, but generally leaves tactical operations up to the individual sector groups. (This could mean that individual sector groups have some leeway in operational planning, in that some might sanction bombings and similar assassinations while others do not). _________________ "No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Bren Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010 Posts: 3868 Location: Maryland, USA
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Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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crmcneill wrote: | Well, reading from the Rebel Alliance Sourcebook, I can offer a few facts:
1). Mon Mothma, as the head of the Alliance, is diametrically opposed to assassinations, but does approve them on occasion, including several attempts on Darth Vader | And Vader is pretty clearly a military target.
Quote: | 2). Alliance interrogators are forbidden by law from using torture as an interrogation technique | Agreed. Though they have and will use the occassional alien or minor force user with special abilties to help sort truth from lies.
Quote: | 3). Imperial personnel captured by the Alliance are generally not killed, and are in stead dropped into isolated POW camps on Alliance safe worlds, far from any Alliance facilities on the planet, and given a bare minimum of supplies to survive on. | Yes. That seems consistent with how the Alliance behaves. Some independent Rebels may not, in my opinion and I believe according the Spec Forces source book on certain missions Spec Forces may not take prisoners.
Quote: | 4). Alliance Counter-Intelligence's Retrieval division does, on occasion, execute captured Imperial infiltrators, but only when the infiltrator is in possession of information that would be highly damaging to the Alliance, as mindwipe and personality reconstruction are illegal in the Alliance | This is consistent with the treatment of spies and other enemies who are out of uniform in the real world.
Quote: | 5). Mon Mothma has strategic command over the Alliance as a whole, but generally leaves tactical operations up to the individual sector groups. (This could mean that individual sector groups have some leeway in operational planning, in that some might sanction bombings and similar assassinations while others do not). | And don't forget not all rebels are members of the Alliance.
Thanks for the download from the Sourcebook.
crmcneill wrote: | Considering we don't know what the rules of war are in the SWU, is it reasonable to assume that they bear some similarity to the rules of the Geneva Convention, as well as the other associated treaties of the "civilized" world? | I gave this some more thought over lunch. I'm not sure the Empire has an official policy on POWs. I think one of the justifications for Empire post Clone Wars was to maintain peace and security and to prevent further war. Ideologically I don't think the Empire sees rebellion as legitimate action. I suspect that the New Order views Rebels as criminals, terrorists, and "Rebel scum" rather than legitimate combatants. I see treatment of POWs falling into the following categories.
Rebels in Uniform:
COMPNOR/CompForce: Prisoners (especially alien prisoners) of CompForce may be treated harshly or even killed outright and given over for interrogation.
Stormtroopers: Unless ordered to take prisoners, I suspect stormtroopers routinely take very few prisoners - excepting PCs of course. I can see stormtroopers using
Regular Imperial Army and Navy: Absent orders to the contrary, regular Imperial forces will accept surrenders of Rebel personnel in uniform and treat them as POWs. In part this is a matter of simple self preservation. If the Army and Navy refuse to treat uniformed combatants as POWs, they fear the Rebels will do likewise.
Rebels out of Uniform:
Imperial forces may be ordered to take Rebels out of uniform prisoner for interrogation purposes. Generally they are treated as traitors and spies and are subject to capital punishment and interrogation by torture - usually by Intel or ISB. The Regular Imperial military do not officially use torture during interrogation - again perhaps for self protection.
On the Alliance side: The Alliance doesn't have the resources to house, feed, and provide Imperial standard medical care for large numbers of Imperial POWs. The Alliance may have difficulty providing for POWs in an appropriate manner and may compel labor in a manner not accordance with the 3rd Geneva Convention. The 3rd GC is from 1929 and was the Convention during WWII. This is based only on viewing the Wiki summaries not reading the whole thing.
Since few CompForce or stormtroopers will surrender the vast majority of Alliance POWs are from the Army and the Navy.
I imagine the Alliance tries to exchange prisoners since that is a win-win for the Alliance. The Empire has plenty of manpower, the Alliance doesn't and feeding Alliance Rebels is a better use of scarce food than feeding Imperial POWs. During many conflicts on earth, prisoners were allowed to give their parole - promising not to take up arms against their captors in future. I suspect the Alliance may resort to parole of Imperial forces. On the plus that saves having to guard, house, and feed the prisoners and the propaganda value means regular Imperial forces may be more likely to surrender if they know they may just be returned home. I also suspect that the Empire will compel parolees to violate their parole and may even consider them collaborators. |
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garhkal Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 14168 Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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Also, looting of the enemy troops is ok, looting in general is not! _________________ Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
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