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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
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 Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | In the films, grenades are practically non-existent, and a massed shield wall was actually used as a tactic... |
Well then in the interest of being helpful, you should equip your new unit with onagers as well. They are part of the the Gungan and Roman Legionary armaments and they nicely complement shield wall tactics.
| Quote: | | Oh, really? For someone who has never even met me, you presume to know a great deal about how I think. I couldn't give a rat's @$$ as to whether or not you and others disagree with me on this forum, but that doesn't mean I won't defend my point as I see fit. If you don't like it, feel free to stop responding. |
I know how you write and debate. That actually tells me quite a bit about you. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16340
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | Well then in the interest of being helpful, you should equip your new unit with onagers as well. They are part of the the Gungan and Roman Legionary armaments and they nicely complement shield wall tactics. |
Oooh, sarcasm. Scary. So basically, you are implying that, because I'm advocating the use of one piece of seemingly antiquated piece of technology used in a given battle, I should automatically endorse the adoption of another seemingly antiquated piece of technology just because it happened to be used by the same side in the same battle? It's either sarcasm or a serious logical fallacy.
A shield is remains useful even if that usefulness is not universal, or because it can be overcome. Every tactic or piece of technology can be overcome given the right counter-tactic or circumstances. I am not advocating the use of massed legion tactics, with thousands of troops equipped with shields and force pikes, even if my Roman Legion reference may have given you that impression. I see something more along the lines of what the Gungans used, and even then only in specific situations. I see a shield line being effective against, say, a company of stormtroopers facing a charging Gamorrean horde. The Gamorreans charge a line of troopers, arranged with shield troopers 1-2 deep, with troopers with blaster rifles behind them, firing over or around the shields. The shields block any thrown weapons, and the combination of shield and force pike finishes off any Gamorreans who make it into melee range. Another applicable tactic would be assigning a squad of shield troops to a line platoon on urban combat duty, then reorganize the squad into smaller units with a shield trooper or two on point, providing mobile cover for the squad when crossing open terrain or when on dynamic entry and clearing actions, just as they are used by military and police units today.
And yes, grenades would still be effective against groups of troopers in close proximity, just like they would against troopers without shields. Grenades, however, have their own potential failings, like throwing range, and scattering. A portable shield could still be used as cover against a grenade if the guy holding the shield can crouch down and get it angled properly. Grenades would be a good tactic to use against a shielded opponent, but that doesn't mean they are 100% effective.
| Quote: | | I know how you write and debate. That actually tells me quite a bit about you. |
Has it told you how little I care? Back on topic, please.
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jmanski
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Location: Kansas
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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Now children.....
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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I am honestly surprised we never saw any grenade use in any of the 6 films...
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ZzaphodD
Rear Admiral
Joined: 28 Nov 2009
Posts: 2426
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | I don't remember actually seeing any stormtroopers being taken out by bows and arrows. The surprise Ewok attack mostly just confused and scattered the Imps. The stormtroopers being bludgeoned by Ewoks act annoyed more than truly threatened. Remember, a lot of the Ewok tactics didn't work too well, until the tide turned in the battle. Then it was largely various traps with logs and such. And remember the hero of the battle was Chewbacca, who took control of an AT-ST and started lighting up the Imps with their own weapon. |
Very true. Perhaps the key to their tactics was teamwork, dividing the stormtroopers into multiple smaller units, then swarming each stormie with multiple attackers, wielding rocks, spears, clubs, crude axes, even bola. Maybe what the Empire needed in that situation was stormtroopers trained and equipped for close combat with melee weapons... |
What they actually needed was to have the plot not work against them... 
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Fallon Kell
Commodore
Joined: 07 Mar 2011
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Location: Tacoma, WA
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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I personally think that at least some imperial troops should be equipped for short-range and melee combat. A human with a knife can reasonably be expected to kill a human with a gun from 20 feet away. An alien that was stealthier, faster, or tougher than a human would be dangerous from an even greater distance.
Since all battles do not occur on golf courses like in The Phantom Menace, (even now I'm not over how awkward that title is...) It's reasonable to expect somewhere, the empire would have to apply it's technological advantages to non-ranged combat as well as blasters.
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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Fallon Kell wrote: | | ...A human with a knife can reasonably be expected to kill a human with a gun from 20 feet away... |
By surprise, possibly. But in combat they won't survive against a competent and ready armed opponent. And if the opponent is unready, it doesn't really matter what they are armed with.
Perhaps folks are forgetting or unaware that many Star Wars blaster rifles can be equipped with bayonets. The bayonet was the reason that pike formations disappeared as required protection for musketry after the mid 17th century on Earth. |
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taedae
Cadet
Joined: 08 Jun 2011
Posts: 19
Location: The Lone Star State
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 11:50 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | I am honestly surprised we never saw any grenade use in any of the 6 films... |
i thought i saw one in the 2nd episode.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10451
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 12:21 am Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | No, no, no. Noghri are just an offshoot race of Ewoks. The poisoning of the Noghri-Ewok's home planet caused their fur to fall out, which is why they look different from their furry Endor-Ewok cousins. |
Oh, I understand now. That Timothy Zahn guy is one wacky dude.
| crmcneill wrote: | | Maybe what the Empire needed in that situation was stormtroopers trained and equipped for close combat with melee weapons... |
In hindsight perhaps, because the Empire totally underestimated the primitive natives. Why else would there not be forest-camoflage-armored stormtroopers there?
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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 12:35 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | I am honestly surprised we never saw any grenade use in any of the 6 films... |
Perhaps grenades were too gritty and real world for the combat in the original films. Of course in TPM the Gungans had energy balls thrown with atlatls that were sort-of grenades. Likely the energy ball was designed to, among other things, short out a Gungan personal shield.
| taedae wrote: | | i thought i saw one in the 2nd episode. |
There were a lot of explosions AotC and RotS, but I thought those were from rockets. I don't recall a thrown grenade. Maybe in the Clone Wars cartoons?
| Whill wrote: | | Why else would there not be forest-camoflage-armored stormtroopers there? |
So the audience could spot them in the dense forest of Endor?  |
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 1:13 am Post subject: |
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| taedae wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | I am honestly surprised we never saw any grenade use in any of the 6 films... |
i thought i saw one in the 2nd episode. |
When?
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Random Numbers
Commander
Joined: 12 Jan 2010
Posts: 454
Location: Gladsheim
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| Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 2:43 am Post subject: |
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And there is that thermal detonator... maybe grenades are too dangerous in Star Wars? In the films the grenade manufacturers don't know how to produce anything less dangerous than a thermal detonator.
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Random Numbers
Commander
Joined: 12 Jan 2010
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Location: Gladsheim
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| Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 2:47 am Post subject: Re: Riot Troopers? |
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| crmcneill wrote: | So, I'm working on a revision of the Imperial OB, and I had the idea of a stormtrooper equipped with a power shield, ala the Gungans in E1. The way I figure it, the Empire must, on occasion face combat in close terrain against enemies who specialize in melee combat. In response, I'm seeing the Empire fielding troops that fight in close ranks like Roman legionnaires or modern riot police, using a power shield as portable cover and fighting around the edges of the shield with a force pike or a heavy blaster pistol (or even a heavy blaster pistol with a mini-force pike fitted as a bayonet.).
Thoughts? |
I see this more as some sort of police force. Putting soldiers in close ranks seems like a bad strategy.
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Hellcat
Grand Moff
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 3:24 am Post subject: Re: Riot Troopers? |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | Couruscant guard allready exists, so perhaps on some core worlds (Coruscant at least) the Empire has to keep a non lethal force as well. A variant of the Coruscant Guard with a shield and a long stun baton would be a great idea.
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I was going to bring them up. Their already a stormtrooper police corps and their only job is to enforce Imperial law. Only on Coruscant are they the Courscant Guard, elsewhere their the Imperial Guard. As riot control would likely have to be the enforcement of martial law seems their perfect for the role.
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Whill
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