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Jekolmy
Cadet
Joined: 03 Jun 2011
Posts: 5
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 Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 11:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Nico_Davout wrote: | BTW: The shields in the book also holds against missiles. In the books there is only kind of shields, that holds against everything. Like in computer games.
Bacta War:
Drysso stared down at his aide. "How many incoming torpedo tracks, Lieutenant Waroen?"
"Twenty, sir."
Two per X-wing. Survivable. "You see, only twenty."
"Wait, sir. I have twenty-four."
"No matter."
"Now I have forty, no, eighty. Eight zero."
Drysso's jaw dropped as he saw a nova flare blossom up over the horizon of his starboard bow. The shields held for a second or two, then collapsed. |
I loved that scene in the book. 80 torps on a SSD-Executor class and the targeted shields fail dramatically.
But on the note of shield types we know there are ray shields from Episode 4 and the reactor vent being shielded. It also would seem that from the movies that there is particle shielding... as evidenced by the fact that a shield must be lowered to allow the shuttle Tiderium to land. Though I could be mistaken on that point.
EDIT: My guess is that particle and ray shields are in most cases created by the same generator... why they didn't have particle shielding on the first Deathstar is anyone's guess. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16382
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 11:31 pm Post subject: |
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IIRC, the general explanation is that Tarkin et al didn't consider the snubfighters enough of a threat to even bother raising the combat shields.
As for the exhaust port having ray shields, there are all kinds of possibilities, but that does not mean that all shields are ineffective against proton torpedoes just because ray shields are.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 11:56 am Post subject: |
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| Jekolmy wrote: | But on the note of shield types we know there are ray shields from Episode 4 and the reactor vent being shielded. It also would seem that from the movies that there is particle shielding... as evidenced by the fact that a shield must be lowered to allow the shuttle Tiderium to land. Though I could be mistaken on that point.
EDIT: My guess is that particle and ray shields are in most cases created by the same generator... why they didn't have particle shielding on the first Deathstar is anyone's guess. |
Ships do have particle shielding. It is included in the hull. I don't have the rules in front of me, but happened to re-read that section over the weekend. According to SW RPG 2nd Edition, when ships launch fighters or missiles they lower the particl shields and as a consequence, the hull strength is suppposed to be reduced by 2D.
We tend to ignore that and to use shields as blocking both energy and physical attacks. I guess if I read those rules literally you couldn't have a below 2D hull ship launch missiles (unless it was a Kamikaze).  |
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Nico_Davout
Commander
Joined: 09 Feb 2009
Posts: 384
Location: Sevilla, Spain
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| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Jekolmy wrote: | | EDIT: My guess is that particle and ray shields are in most cases created by the same generator... why they didn't have particle shielding on the first Deathstar is anyone's guess. |
Same conclusion. It must be the same power generator, which generates two different kind of shields at the same time. The strength of both shields is one thing. If the particle shields suffers damage and lowers its resistance value, so does the ray shield. This way, I think, is the easiest to explain the things we see in the games and read in the books.
I think the 1st DS had, just in the 1977 no one thought about being this important to note for the purpose of the future RPG, games and books  .
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Han Solo shot first, midichlosomething do not exist, Rebel Alliance was created as in the WEG books and indoctrination theory is the true ending of ME3. |
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ZzaphodD
Rear Admiral
Joined: 28 Nov 2009
Posts: 2426
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| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | Jekolmy wrote: | But on the note of shield types we know there are ray shields from Episode 4 and the reactor vent being shielded. It also would seem that from the movies that there is particle shielding... as evidenced by the fact that a shield must be lowered to allow the shuttle Tiderium to land. Though I could be mistaken on that point.
EDIT: My guess is that particle and ray shields are in most cases created by the same generator... why they didn't have particle shielding on the first Deathstar is anyone's guess. |
Ships do have particle shielding. It is included in the hull. I don't have the rules in front of me, but happened to re-read that section over the weekend. According to SW RPG 2nd Edition, when ships launch fighters or missiles they lower the particl shields and as a consequence, the hull strength is suppposed to be reduced by 2D.
We tend to ignore that and to use shields as blocking both energy and physical attacks. I guess if I read those rules literally you couldn't have a below 2D hull ship launch missiles (unless it was a Kamikaze). |
I read in a novel, I guess it was an X-wing novel but Im not sure, that proton torpedos were great for knocking down shields. I think a X-wing used a single missile to knock down one side shield of a Corellian Corvette..
My view of shields are that they protect all around the ship, at the original rating. Designing a shield system were a operator is assumed to raise/lower shields manually in different fire arcs as the opponents fly around the ship just seem plain stupid..
Also, with the scene in E4 or 5 where the Stardestroyer fires at MF it seems the shields can take at least one hit, protecting the ship. Its where C3P0 says that one more hit and their doomed (or something like that..).
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16382
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | | My view of shields are that they protect all around the ship, at the original rating. Designing a shield system were a operator is assumed to raise/lower shields manually in different fire arcs as the opponents fly around the ship just seem plain stupid.. |
I agree completely. I use the same rule, but allow the shield operator to transfer energy between shields using a variant of the Power Distribution rules in the Far Orbit Project, and allow civilian ships to transfer 1D of power between shields, while military ships can transfer up to 2D.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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I also favor the base shield rating as allowing shields at that strength all around, but the operator can strengthen the shields in a particular area (Left, Front, Right, Rear) by reducing shield strength in another area - (i) so that the operator has something to do and (ii) so that we account for Red Leader's quote: "Switch your deflector shields on -- double front!"
Also, the number of shield zones I use sometimes varies with ship size: e.g. starfighters: front and rear only, millenium falcon (L,F,R,R), big capital ships (Left, Front, Right, Rear, Dorsal/top, Ventral/bottom). Visually I think of the shields as being oblate to spherical in shape and the zones tend to be shaped like spherical wedges (think a slice of an orange).
Though I've always been a bit tempted to allow a shield operator roll that exceeds the damage inflicted to fully deflect a hit by precisely angling the shields just right. This would make the shield operation a bit more important as skills go. |
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Fallon Kell
Commodore
Joined: 07 Mar 2011
Posts: 1846
Location: Tacoma, WA
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| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Jekolmy wrote: | IIRC
In the X-wing series (EU) book 4, the Lusankya targets the Freedom (an Imp II) with her Ion Cannon only and completely wipes out her shields on the port? side of the warship... and causes other issues such as exploding consoles ect. I think in book 1 they use ion cannon in an attempt to drop a small base shield. So I would think it reasonable that Ion Cannon would be used to drop shields and disable ships as well. |
I think the idea here is that the ion cannons target the shield generators and pass through the shields on the way there. They ionize the generators, bringing down the shields and exposing the vessel to further attack. All sources I have ever read are clear on the fact that ion cannons pass through shields, unless the shields are specifically configured to block ion cannons. In that case, however, laser cannons and blasters will pass through the shields (as per Del Ray's Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology).
As I've mentioned before, I think that shields stopped ion cannons in the X-Wing and TIE Fighter games because otherwise, no one would ever use blasters. I also happen to remember that if you disabled a TIE with ion fire, it spontaneously detonated. These were all just changes made to the weapon dynamics to make the game more fun. (And by the way, they worked!) 
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| Nico_Davout wrote: | | Jekolmy wrote: | | EDIT: My guess is that particle and ray shields are in most cases created by the same generator... why they didn't have particle shielding on the first Deathstar is anyone's guess. |
Same conclusion. It must be the same power generator, which generates two different kind of shields at the same time. The strength of both shields is one thing. If the particle shields suffers damage and lowers its resistance value, so does the ray shield. This way, I think, is the easiest to explain the things we see in the games and read in the books. |
Exactly! Same generator, different projectors! I personally run particle shields at the shield D rating. Otherwise, it's just too easy for a ship with one proton torpedo to randomly take down an ISD in a single hit. Ships without shields like TIEs have particle shields too, but they are only strong enough to protect against micro meteor impacts (less than 1 pip).
| Jekolmy wrote: | | Hi all, I just registered here because you all seem like nice folk and I have some questions. |
We all try and seem like nice folk so that more people will come and argue about ion cannons with us . Welcome to the forums!
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16382
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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How about this as an optional rule?
Ion Cannon are blocked by shields under the following rules:
1). On a successful strike, ion cannon roll damage against the target's shield dice only (Example: An Ion Cannon is fired at an ISD I, with 3D of shields. The ion cannon rolls its damage against 3D, instead of against the combined 7D+3D of the ISD's hull and shields).
2). On successful damage with ion cannon against shields, use the following chart:
0-3 = -1
4-8 = -2
9-12 = -1D
13-15 = -1D+1
16+ = = -1D+2
The result is subtracted from the target's shield dice.
3). Shield dice lost to an ion cannon attack can be restored on a successful Repair roll, with the damage inflicted as the base, using the same chart as above.
4). Once the shields are down completely, ion cannon function as described in the 2R&E rulebook.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Bren
Vice Admiral
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Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 11:03 am Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | How about this as an optional rule? ...
0-3 = -1
4-8 = -2
9-12 = -1D
13-15 = -1D+1
16+ = = -1D+2
The result is subtracted from the target's shield dice.
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This would mean that it would be impossible to bring down a shield with 2D or more strength in a single shot. So even the mega ion cannon on Hoth only weakens the shield, but doesn't bring it down or do any damage. That doesn't work for me. |
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CRMcNeill
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | This would mean that it would be impossible to bring down a shield with 2D or more strength in a single shot. So even the mega ion cannon on Hoth only weakens the shield, but doesn't bring it down or do any damage. That doesn't work for me. |
Well, I did just kinda throw it together at the last minute. How about something open ended, so that for every 3 pips by which the damage roll succeeds, the target loses a pip of shields? That way it isn't capped at 1D+2.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Well, I did just kinda throw it together at the last minute. How about something open ended, so that for every 3 pips by which the damage roll succeeds, the target loses a pip of shields? That way it isn't capped at 1D+2. |
Open ended sounds better.
You also need to account for the Hoth Ion cannon. One option: 1st compare ion damage to target hull+shield if soak exceeded do damage pre the normal ionization table. Then compare ion vs shields alone (you could use different colored dice for the shields vs hull so you don't have to reroll), then use a table like yours, but open ended, for damaging the shields. Thus you get two results (i) big ion damage does ionization to the ship + brings down or seriously degrades the shields while (ii) lesser damage degrades the shields making the vessel more vulnerable to laser cannon and missiles. |
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CRMcNeill
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | You also need to account for the Hoth Ion cannon. One option: 1st compare ion damage to target hull+shield if soak exceeded do damage pre the normal ionization table. Then compare ion vs shields alone (you could use different colored dice for the shields vs hull so you don't have to reroll), then use a table like yours, but open ended, for damaging the shields. Thus you get two results (i) big ion damage does ionization to the ship + brings down or seriously degrades the shields while (ii) lesser damage degrades the shields making the vessel more vulnerable to laser cannon and missiles. |
Remember that the Hoth Ion Cannon did 12D damage with at least two shots. If we go with open ended, 12D vs. 3D shields is an average disparity of over 30 points, so that's -3D+1 to the shields (taking them down completely), followed by 12D vs. 7D against the unprotected hull for the second shot, which can be expected to beat the Hull by at least 16 points, and that's an automatic Controls Dead result on the ion damage chart.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Last edited by CRMcNeill on Tue Jun 07, 2011 6:33 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Bren
Vice Admiral
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Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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But do both shots automatically hit? I would think not. I think there is a problem with having a 1D or less shield fully stop a 12D ion attack.  That makes a vessel with 1 point of shields immune to any single ion attack, which actually makes an ion cannon weaker against shields (since they fully stop any one shot) than an equivalent or even weaker laser cannon. That seems wrong to me, but I will give you that it would at least explain why nearly all ships mount blaster/laser cannon, but only some ships mount ion cannon. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 8:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | But do both shots automatically hit? I would think not. I think there is a problem with having a 1D or less shield fully stop a 12D ion attack. :shock: That makes a vessel with 1 point of shields immune to any single ion attack, which actually makes an ion cannon weaker against shields (since they fully stop any one shot) than an equivalent or even weaker laser cannon. That seems wrong to me, but I will give you that it would at least explain why nearly all ships mount blaster/laser cannon, but only some ships mount ion cannon. |
Well, based on the film evidence, we can reasonably assume that both ion cannon shots rolled successful hits on the ISD at Hoth. Based on my original calculations, the ISD lost 3D+1 of shields to the initial shot, which completely wiped out the shields, with +1 left over. That +1 probably did minimal ion damage against a 7D Hull, but certainly left the door open for the follow-up shot.
On a ship with lighter shields, like the 1D you suggested, perhaps whatever number of pips are left after the shields are dropped would be applied as a damage roll against the Hull in the same attack. If a ship with 1D shields and 3D hull is hit by a v-150, it would play out something like:
1). Ion cannon rolls 12D vs. 1D shields. Splat (42 vs. 5 = 37 = -4D to shields). Shields are completely wiped out.
2). However, since it only took 9 points of ion damage to take out the shields, that leaves 28 points of ion damage left over.
3). So, the target rolls his 3D hull against the remaining ion damage for a total of 11. The target takes 17 points of damage, for a Controls Dead result.
All that from one shot.
Of course, there is an even simpler fix. We could treat ion cannon attacks as normal, but make the results Shields Blown / Controls Ionized, so that ion cannon function as described in the RAW, but they disable the shield generators first before disabling the ship's hardware systems.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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