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garhkal
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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 Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2011 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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So they are receiving less than 1/2 d of points, but they still suffer no MAPS for having it up and no need to roll to bring it up. That is what i was on about.
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Galen_Paratus
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Joined: 22 May 2011
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| Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 9:04 am Post subject: |
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| Because it makes no sense that in order for a jedi to be able to effectively use their signature weapon. A weapon that 99.9% of jedi use, they have to gimp themselves in every other department. There are enough other force powers a jedi should keep up which drain their dice pools, without lightsaber combat adding to it |
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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Well, since the force itself is their 'signature' power, why should it be gimped at all?
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Galen_Paratus
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Joined: 22 May 2011
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| Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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If the power is only half of what it once was, there needs to be some sort of balancing factor to make it worthwhile (aside from the ability to parry blaster bolts). Hence the lack of a power roll to activate and no MAP's to worry about. It brings down the ridiculous dice pools of the Jedi to more reasonable levels while allowing said Jedi to take advantage of other skills.
The lightsaber, just like any melee weapon, acts like an extension of the body. Why should a Jedi be less effective at dodging, running, or kicking somebody in the face, just because they are effectively using their lightsaber?
Using the lightsaber is like second nature to a Jedi, and shouldn't require any concentration. However, something like control pain, or resist stun, danger sense, etc, all require a bit more mental focus, and very much should reduce effectiveness with other rolls |
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Bren
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Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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| I've got to say I find the idea that the Jedi we see (at least in the prequels) don't seem handicapped by having their lightsaber out, and presumably with LS combat up. Also, I like the idea of making it easier to use LS Combat for beginning/moderate skilled Jedi, while weakening the bonus for Jedi knights and above. |
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ZzaphodD
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Joined: 28 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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My major gripe with LSC is that all that recalculation you need to do.. (ie, bonus to skill and damage). Why not make the bonus lower, but take away the MAPs and need for recalculation and it evens out but means faster play.
Having said that I feel theres a need to make Jedis less powerful in combat. More along 1st ed rules, or perhaps slightly more powerful than that after all... That bonus to the Lightsaber skill is the major problem I guess. Not only do they have a badass weapon that cuts all other weapons to pieces, they also have an unmatched skill level. As a GM I feel that for badguys to be able to stand up to a PC Jedi they need a Jedi themselves.
I remember playing in 1st ed when we were hunted by IG88, which mauled the whole party. Today a Jedi would get in close combat (sooner or later) and cut it up (barring a 10-12D STR stat...).
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Galen_Paratus
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Joined: 22 May 2011
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| Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Thus far I've never had a problem dealing with Jedi characters. If things ever get too far out of hand in regards to their power, I break out the stun grenades and disruptor rifles. That generally puts them in their place pretty quick. |
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Bren
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Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | My major gripe with LSC is that all that recalculation you need to do.. (ie, bonus to skill and damage). Why not make the bonus lower, but take away the MAPs and need for recalculation and it evens out but means faster play.
Having said that I feel theres a need to make Jedis less powerful in combat. More along 1st ed rules, or perhaps slightly more powerful than that after all... That bonus to the Lightsaber skill is the major problem I guess. Not only do they have a badass weapon that cuts all other weapons to pieces, they also have an unmatched skill level. As a GM I feel that for badguys to be able to stand up to a PC Jedi they need a Jedi themselves.
I remember playing in 1st ed when we were hunted by IG88, which mauled the whole party. Today a Jedi would get in close combat (sooner or later) and cut it up (barring a 10-12D STR stat...). |
Yeah, the calculation seems needlessly complicated. We use a simpler system. I agree that the Jedi are a pretty fearsome close combat opponent. It might help to assume that melee weapons aren't automatically destroyed by deflecting a lightsaber. IIR we see Luke swinging away on Jabba's guards in the skiffs and on the sail barge and it looks like some hits have more of a bashing than cutting effect. Not that I want a bashing effect, just that I don't think a lightsaber necessarily cuts through everything automatically. It must be aimed to slice through the weapon. Allow Jedi to choose to target the weapon (at, say a +1D or so difficulty for a called shot) as a choice, but otherwise allow the weapons to survive the parry if the defender can roll +5 or more over the attack* or unless the defender rolls a 1 on the wild die (easy complication roll decision there). If the weapon is damaged weapons should have some armor, many of them are designed to parry with after all. So perhaps something like only score 1 pt damage for each point of damage exceeding the weapon max - for example a 2D STR sword that parries a 20 point hit takes 20-12 (max on 2D) = 8 damage. And is damaged but still functional, though a second hit will likely destroy it.
* Note that a very good parry may mean the defender forced the Jedi to avoid the defender's blade via a feint or some such, rather than that the defender interposed his blade. |
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ZzaphodD
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Joined: 28 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Galen_Paratus wrote: | | Thus far I've never had a problem dealing with Jedi characters. If things ever get too far out of hand in regards to their power, I break out the stun grenades and disruptor rifles. That generally puts them in their place pretty quick. |
Yeah, thats totally ok for 'Jedi Hunters', but given the rareness of Jedis, how many know how to handle them?
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 8:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | ZzaphodD wrote: | My major gripe with LSC is that all that recalculation you need to do.. (ie, bonus to skill and damage). Why not make the bonus lower, but take away the MAPs and need for recalculation and it evens out but means faster play.
Having said that I feel theres a need to make Jedis less powerful in combat. More along 1st ed rules, or perhaps slightly more powerful than that after all... That bonus to the Lightsaber skill is the major problem I guess. Not only do they have a badass weapon that cuts all other weapons to pieces, they also have an unmatched skill level. As a GM I feel that for badguys to be able to stand up to a PC Jedi they need a Jedi themselves.
I remember playing in 1st ed when we were hunted by IG88, which mauled the whole party. Today a Jedi would get in close combat (sooner or later) and cut it up (barring a 10-12D STR stat...). |
Yeah, the calculation seems needlessly complicated. We use a simpler system. I agree that the Jedi are a pretty fearsome close combat opponent. It might help to assume that melee weapons aren't automatically destroyed by deflecting a lightsaber. IIR we see Luke swinging away on Jabba's guards in the skiffs and on the sail barge and it looks like some hits have more of a bashing than cutting effect. Not that I want a bashing effect, just that I don't think a lightsaber necessarily cuts through everything automatically. It must be aimed to slice through the weapon. Allow Jedi to choose to target the weapon (at, say a +1D or so difficulty for a called shot) as a choice, but otherwise allow the weapons to survive the parry if the defender can roll +5 or more over the attack* or unless the defender rolls a 1 on the wild die (easy complication roll decision there). If the weapon is damaged weapons should have some armor, many of them are designed to parry with after all. So perhaps something like only score 1 pt damage for each point of damage exceeding the weapon max - for example a 2D STR sword that parries a 20 point hit takes 20-12 (max on 2D) = 8 damage. And is damaged but still functional, though a second hit will likely destroy it.
* Note that a very good parry may mean the defender forced the Jedi to avoid the defender's blade via a feint or some such, rather than that the defender interposed his blade. |
Well, the major problem is the insane number of dice the Jedi rolls. Youre not going to roll a 'very good parry' vs 10-12D of attacking dice... 
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Bren
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Joined: 19 Aug 2010
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Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 10:13 pm Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | | Well, the major problem is the insane number of dice the Jedi rolls. Youre not going to roll a 'very good parry' vs 10-12D of attacking dice... |
True, in one-on-one straight up melee vs. a Jedi knight or above (around 5D-6D force abilities and 6D-8D lightsaber combat) other characters are basically toast. However, I don't really see how to have a Jedi act Jedi like and not have that be the case. With altered lightsaber combat rules Jedi knights end up with about 8D - 11D before MAPs. However, if a group of characters is mixing up different types of attacks and defense with attackers forcing multipe actions on the Jedi and those that are attacked trying as close to full defense as possible - several normal characters may be able to hold their own. Other than that, I don't really see a simple way to one-on-one balance the Jedi without gutting their movie-like abilities.
I think a mix of techniques helps:
1) Enforcing the Jedi as mystics and peacekeepers not just fighting machines puts some character motivation breaks in.
2) Having players and NPCs act like movie/story charactes where the heroes seek each other out for special combat while the more normal characters deal with the more normal foes helps give everybody something to do.
3) Using MAPs and combined action by foes to even the odds a bit vs the Jedi provides some balance.
4) Mixing types of challenges so that non-Jedi characters have important actions to take in and out of combat. Use the areas the Jedi is not good at as key skills in some scenes. Typically Jedi have one or more dump attributes or sets of stats they aren't good at - use those. For example, many Jedi templates are not good at Mechanical or Technical skills, so include some ship or vehicle chases or combat and associated repairs to challenge the Jedi or allow others to shine.*
5) I think it helps a lot if the players are willing to allow other characters' their unique advantages and moments to shine rather than taking a "me, me, me, ..." attitude makes a huge difference.
6) Having players and GM recognize that Jedi are different than normal characters and letting that happen without allowing the Jedi to totally dominate play helps.
7) Using in-game consequences to PC Jedi acting as unadulterated combat monsters - this will affect reputation causing things like - (i) questioning of Jedi's dedication to the tenets of the order by his superiors if there is an organized Jedi order; (ii) questioning of the Jedi's morality by his companions and allies as they witness the ease with which he slaughters his opponents or even outright fear of the Jedi by his companions and others; (iii) attention of and stalking by more and more powerful Jedi hunters during the Empire or during the Clone Wars; (iv) attention by Dark Siders wanting to subvert, challenge, or destroy the Jedi at any time; (v) missions from his superiors or pleas for help from citizens that ask the Jedi to accomplish more and greater tasks, greater danger, and maybe including requests to solve multiple problems in different locations - guaranteeing the Jedi must fail to save or help someone.
* One advantage to the idea that a force user must give up 1D of attributes for each force ability is that it causes force user PCs to operate for quite some time with one or more stats below 3D. This creates an areas of weakness for the Jedi. While this may not show up in combat then it will show up elsewhere if DEX, PER, and STR are good the other stats must pay the penalty. This is one reason we make characters pay at least 1D in stats to be force users and enforce the requirement to roll to try to increase attributes. |
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jmanski
Arbiter-General (Moderator)
Joined: 06 Mar 2005
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Location: Kansas
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| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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I would add that Jedi should also raise other skills- not just focus on the force and combat abilities.
If a Jedi is not raising other skills, then he should have to do some things he is weak in- nothing more humbling than that.
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Bren
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Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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| jmanski wrote: | I would add that Jedi should also raise other skills- not just focus on the force and combat abilities.
If a Jedi is not raising other skills, then he should have to do some things he is weak in- nothing more humbling than that. |
I'm a big proponent of diversifying skills. Also a proponent of characters having some skills that they are not great at. What fun is it to suceed at everything you try? Much better to have both strengths and weaknesses and to share the success with your friends. |
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Esoomian
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Joined: 29 Oct 2003
Posts: 6207
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 8:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Bren wrote: | | If a Jedi is not raising other skills, then he should have to do some things he is weak in- nothing more humbling than that. |
I'm a big proponent of diversifying skills. Also a proponent of characters having some skills that they are not great at. What fun is it to suceed at everything you try? Much better to have both strengths and weaknesses and to share the success with your friends. |
That is part of the reason I've started to really dislike the 'Concentration' power. As long as they only have to do one action per round Jedi can get away with having fairly low skills in non combat areas and using concentration to boost them as needed.
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Last edited by Esoomian on Tue Jun 07, 2011 1:51 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Bren
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Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 10:30 am Post subject: |
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| Esoomian wrote: | | That is part of the reason I've started to really dislike the 'Concentration' power. As long as they only have to do one action per round Jedi can get away with having fairly low skills in non combat areas and using concentration to boost them as needed. |
Yeah, that's a tricky one. Here are a few tweaks to fix that:
(1) Only allow concentration if the Jedi can really clear their mind. Make them take one or more rounds to focus and get calm (which is pretty problematic in the midst of combat). We enforce a willpower roll with difficulty based on how calm the Jedi is to start and how peaceful the circulstances.
(2) Only allow concentration to affect actions that can be completed in one round, similar to using a FP. [I don't actually like this one since it moves concentration more in the direction of being a miny force point.]
(3) Only allow concentration to effect force powers, not ordinary skills or actions. |
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