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MA-3PO
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 17 Apr 2005
Posts: 236
Location: Olathe, Kansas
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 Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 12:15 am Post subject: |
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So let me make sure I understand. You use the Force attribute but then treat the skills as specializations? Do you let your players improve any skill or do you use prereqs?
For example, let's say I want to improve Control Anothers Pain over the base Force attribute of 3D. I pay 2cp and now my character has specialization at 3D+1. Is this what your doing? Would you require me to have prior skill in the prereq Control Pain? |
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Caladar
Cadet
Joined: 26 Oct 2006
Posts: 3
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| Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:33 am Post subject: |
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We did to start with, but found that, even with the reduced cost of specialisations, it was too expensive that way. (We'd slowed the power inprovements down already and found that we were letting some powers slip behind, and even be ignored)
What we are currently trialing is a small change to these sorts of powers (Control Pain is a great example). Instead of 2 seperate powers (1 for you, 1 for 'them'), we have only Control Pain*. The * on our power list shows that it can be used on others (as normal per the 'Others' power description), but you roll at -2D.
eg, Force attribute of 2D and Control Pain power at 3D. To control my own pain I roll 5D. To help someone else I roll 3D.
This limits the amount of powers needed on an already full sheet, and ensures that force users spend some cp inproving what would otherwise be a more negelected power.
For other powers we are using a minimum of 3D in any prereq. powers. This seems to work as a balancing issue, and stops players from putting all their cps into their 'cool' powers. |
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Xynar
Commander
Joined: 10 Aug 2003
Posts: 282
Location: Northwest Indiana
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| Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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I tried it with a Force attribute and then Control, Sense, and Alter as skills under this attribute. The problem was, it did not feel like Star Wars with this mechanic in place. So I went back to the drawing board and just simply did away with some powers and broadened others more.
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Ankhanu
Vice Admiral
Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 3089
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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Right now I'm building a character for a game in which we're probably going to test this concept. I'm not GMing, but am involved in mechanical discussion on it. In making a character, I'm seeing where things might go in terms of advancement and game play...
How does this rule set look:
.: Characters may be made Force Sensitive with the expenditure of at least 1 Attribute die into the Force Sensitive ability
---- Non-Force Sensitives may become Force Sensitive (1D) for 20CP in game.
.: Force Sensitive behaves as an Attribute for Force use
---- Advancement of Force Sensitive ability at Advanced Skill costs (xD+y -> xD+(y+1) requires 2x CP)
.: Force Powers are skills of the Force Sensitive ability
---- Advancement of Power die codes conducted at specialization cost
---- Force Powers with prerequisites require 2D in the prerequisite Powers before they can be trained
.: Force Powers requiring more than one of the standard Force Skills (C/S/A) have their difficulties set as the highest of the Force Skills listed in their descriptions.
.: Force Powers may be used untrained (subject to GM approval)
---- Force Powers without prerequisites simply use the Force Sensitive ability
---- Force Powers with prerequisites may be attempted at +5 difficulty for the first missing prerequisite, compounded by +2 for each additional missing prerequisite power
---- Force Sensitives WITHOUT knowledge of the Force (ie. an introduction to Jedi training, etc) CANNOT attempt any Force Powers consciously! Force Sensitive may be used, at GM discretion, to sense "tremors" in the Force or otherwise augment the characters in a story appropriate manner; a coincidental push to help them succeed in critical moments, etc.
I'm finding that this setup makes you HEAVILY consider where you spend your initial 7D skill dice. |
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Effex Seven
Ensign
Joined: 10 Aug 2006
Posts: 33
Location: Dantooine
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| Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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I'm experimenting with something like this as well, and I have a few questions for you.
| Ankhanu wrote: | Characters may be made Force Sensitive with the expenditure of at least 1 Attribute die into the Force Sensitive ability
.: Force Sensitive behaves as an Attribute for Force use
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So in essence this is a 7th attribute, and you assign some of your initial 18d to it? Is there a max?
| Quote: | Advancement of Force Sensitive ability at Advanced Skill costs (xD+y -> xD+(y+1) requires 2x CP)
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Why not advance at Att costs (10x current D)?
| Quote: | | Force Powers may be used untrained (subject to GM approval) |
This is the major question I have. Red Fox mentioned this in his post as well. If a character can use ANY and ALL force powers, that's really powerful. It's what 1st edition did, and they scaled it back in 2nd edition, and even more in R&E..
| Quote: | | Force Sensitives WITHOUT knowledge of the Force (ie. an introduction to Jedi training, etc) CANNOT attempt any Force Powers consciously! Force Sensitive may be used, at GM discretion, to sense "tremors" in the Force or otherwise augment the characters in a story appropriate manner; a coincidental push to help them succeed in critical moments, etc. |
I like that alot. I've been thinking of letting Force Sensitives (non-Jedi) buy one power that sometimes works w/o them knowing quite why or how. |
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Ankhanu
Vice Admiral
Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 3089
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Effex Seven wrote: | I'm experimenting with something like this as well, and I have a few questions for you.
| Ankhanu wrote: | Characters may be made Force Sensitive with the expenditure of at least 1 Attribute die into the Force Sensitive ability
.: Force Sensitive behaves as an Attribute for Force use
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So in essence this is a 7th attribute, and you assign some of your initial 18d to it? Is there a max? |
This would be much as the actual rule, really, except instead of having Control, Sense and Alter, there's just Force Sensitive. I think a 3D allocation max makes sense... though I don't know if a cap is necessary. Any character that takes much more than that (or even that) out of their Attribute dice is going to be pretty badly off in every area when not using the Force.
| Quote: | | Quote: | Advancement of Force Sensitive ability at Advanced Skill costs (xD+y -> xD+(y+1) requires 2x CP)
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Why not advance at Att costs (10x current D)? |
I think that Attribute cost is somewhat prohibitive, especially given the general difficulty levels of using Force Powers. Most skills under the standard Attributes have fairly low base difficulties; Force Powers vary pretty heavily in their difficulties, with a fair number being VD/Heroic.
Plus you have to spread your CP through your standard skills/Attributes, Force Sensitive and individual Force Powers... I can see that getting expensive to the point of falling behind.
Standard rules advance Control, Sense and Alter at skill cost, but there are three skills to increase. Using double cost increases the base cost so that the single ability isn't TOO powerful (I think skill cost would severely overpower it), but it's not so expensive as to make the character fall behind non-Force users.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | Force Powers may be used untrained (subject to GM approval) |
This is the major question I have. Red Fox mentioned this in his post as well. If a character can use ANY and ALL force powers, that's really powerful. It's what 1st edition did, and they scaled it back in 2nd edition, and even more in R&E.. |
Yeah, it could be really powerful, but the GM has final say as to whether the PC manages to call forth the power, which does add restriction. Plus with the increased difficulties for missing prerequisites, the difficulty for an untrained power has the potential to go through the roof, almost guaranteeing failure.
Of course, I see no reason why there couldn't be a general increase in difficulty for ALL untrained Powers.
I also see no reason not to alter certain Force Powers descriptions to include the line "This power may not be attempted untrained." 
I put this under heavier consideration when I started building a starting character with this system. Having only 7D skill dice to allocate between Force Powers and Attribute skills illustrated how utterly limited a starting Force Sensitive would be, both in terms of Force use (as in the standard rules) and in terms of mundane skills. Standard Force user rules make starting Jedi a mild liability; this system, when requiring Force Powers to be trained to even attempt to access them makes them a MUCH larger liability... to the point that (in my eyes) they look practically useless; unskilled in the real world and in the Force world.
I haven't seen the 1st edition Force rules, as I started after 2nd had been released.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | Force Sensitives WITHOUT knowledge of the Force (ie. an introduction to Jedi training, etc) CANNOT attempt any Force Powers consciously! Force Sensitive may be used, at GM discretion, to sense "tremors" in the Force or otherwise augment the characters in a story appropriate manner; a coincidental push to help them succeed in critical moments, etc. |
I like that alot. I've been thinking of letting Force Sensitives (non-Jedi) buy one power that sometimes works w/o them knowing quite why or how. |
Yeah, that would be cool. I've worked with that concept in the standard rules... a street kid with some telekinetic ability (1D Alter, Telekinesis). Would lead to the easy acquisition of DSPs, which could be interesting roleplaying.
It wouldn't make sense for someone who isn't conscious of being able to manipulate the Force to be able to do so by their choice, or to be able to extend their senses by it. This way, the GM can slowly make the character aware of what they are and maybe have other Force Users recognize them or their potential and can even base entire games around it.
Would also make it so that having Force Sensitivity isn't an COMPLETE waste for someone who has no training. |
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Effex Seven
Ensign
Joined: 10 Aug 2006
Posts: 33
Location: Dantooine
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| Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Ankhanu wrote: | | though I don't know if a cap is necessary. Any character that takes much more than that (or even that) out of their Attribute dice is going to be pretty badly off in every area when not using the Force. |
True.
| Quote: | | I think that Attribute cost is somewhat prohibitive, especially given the general difficulty levels of using Force Powers. Most skills under the standard Attributes have fairly low base difficulties; Force Powers vary pretty heavily in their difficulties, with a fair number being VD/Heroic. |
The purist in me wants to say "raise skills if you want to meet the high difficulties, just like any other skill" but I haven't done the research to see if that makes sense.
| Quote: | | Plus with the increased difficulties for missing prerequisites, the difficulty for an untrained power has the potential to go through the roof, almost guaranteeing failure. |
That's an excellent balancing mechanism.
| Quote: | | I haven't seen the 1st edition Force rules, as I started after 2nd had been released. |
Well you're not missing much, basically it says once you buy a skill (C/S/A) you can use ALL powers under that skill. |
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Ankhanu
Vice Admiral
Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 3089
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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I've been thinking about it a bit more and I'm kind of thinking:
| Ankhanu wrote: | | ---- Force Powers with prerequisites require 2D in the prerequisite Powers before they can be trained |
This could be changes to something like:
---- Force Powers with prerequisites require 5D (or Force Sensitive +1D, whichever is higher), in the prerequisite Powers before they can be trained.
This would represent the difficulty of an unskilled Force user in developing new abilities, while not making learning too expensive at higher levels (particularly when learning basic skills that weren't trained earlier on... other Powers will generally have a list of prerequisites to increase to meet them) |
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Ankhanu
Vice Admiral
Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 3089
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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I had a PM question about this system the other day, so I figured I'd compile the rules together and address an issue that I hadn't gotten around to before...
| Ankhanu wrote: | This is the rule set I posted for review:
.: Characters may be made Force Sensitive with the expenditure of at least 1 Attribute die into the Force Sensitive ability
---- Non-Force Sensitives may become Force Sensitive (1D) for 20CP in game.
.: Force Sensitive behaves as an Attribute for Force use
---- Advancement of Force Sensitive ability at Advanced Skill costs (xD+y -> xD+(y+1) requires 2x CP)
.: Force Powers are skills of the Force Sensitive ability
---- Advancement of Power die codes conducted at specialization cost
---- Force Powers with prerequisites require 2D in the prerequisite Powers before they can be trained
.: Force Powers requiring more than one of the standard Force Skills (C/S/A) have their difficulties set as the highest of the Force Skills listed in their descriptions.
.: Force Powers may be used untrained
---- Force Powers without prerequisites simply use the Force Sensitive ability
---- Force Powers with prerequisites may be attempted at +5 difficulty for the first missing prerequisite, compounded by +2 for each additional missing prerequisite power
---- Force Sensitives WITHOUT knowledge of the Force (ie. an introduction to Jedi training, etc) CANNOT attempt any Force Powers consciously! Force Sensitive may be used, at GM discretion, to sense "tremors" in the Force or otherwise augment the characters in a story appropriate manner; a coincidental push to help them succeed in critical moments, etc. |
While most Force Powers require no real changes to work under the Force Attribute system, Lightsaber Combat needs to be re-written. I recognized this before, but I just had a question from a forum user that made me realize I never actually addressed it... so I wrote a basic rule for the power on the fly:
| Ankhanu wrote: | Lightsaber Combat actually needs some extra tweaking as well, since I've changed the way the Force Skills work.
By RAW, once active you add your Sense dice to your Lightsaber skill rolls to attack/defend and you add or subtract your Control Dice from the weapon's damage.
For example, a character with Lightsaber 5D+2 (Damage 5D), Control 4D, Sense 3D, once LSC was raised, they would roll 8D+2 for their attack roll (5D+2 + 3D) and when they hit, can roll anywhere from 1D to 9D damage by adding and subtracting any/all of their 4D in Control to/from the base lightsaber damage (5D +/- 4D).
Obviously this doesn't work where there is not Control or Sense 
My gut reaction is that you would use your Lightsaber Combat skill as a total dice pool to split between controlling your attack/defense and controlling the amount of damage you do.
For example, let's look at the same character, with Force Sensitive 3D and Lightsaber Combat 6D, and they still have a Lightsaber skill of 5D+2.
They can choose to split up the 6D of Lightsaber Combat any way they choose between attack/defense and damage. Let's say they're feeling like an even split is wise, they can put 3D to attack/defense and 3D to damage, rolling 8D+2 to attack/defend and anywhere from 2D - 8D damage (5D +/- 3D). Alternatively, they could use all 6D to either action and 0D to the other, so up to 11D+2 (5D+2 + 6D) to attack with 5D (5D + 0) damage, to 5D+2 to attack/defense and 0D - 11D damage (5D +/- 6D).
To deflect a blaster bolt back at a target would follow the same principle, split LSC between your defense roll and the remainder would be used to aim your shot (ie. be treated like a Blaster roll to shoot). Let's go with the even split again; our Jedi would defend against the blaster bolt with 8D+2, and aim/shoot the bolt back at 3D.
I think that should work Razz Oddly enough, when I did test the Force Attribute, Lightsaber Combat never came up, so I just had to rule that on the fly. |
Any thoughts?
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16259
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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Considering all the various instances in which a Jedi used the Force while wielding weapons other than lightsabers in combat, I did a revamp of Lightsaber Combat based on the existing Force power system. It can however, be modified to fit yours.
If I understand what you are saying, rather than having Control and Sense added to Damage and Lightsaber respectively, you have one Lightsaber Combat Force power that acts as a dice pool split between damage and Lightsaber. What I did with mine was allow the Jedi to use his dice as a bonus to his physical skill, but the bonus could not be higher than the level of his physical skill
For example, if a Jedi had a Blaster of 5D, and Force Combat (instead of Lightsaber Combat) of 8D, he would only be able to apply 5D of his Force Combat skill to enhancing the Blaster, and that 5D would be used as a dice pool, split between Blaster and damage.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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jmanski
Arbiter-General (Moderator)
Joined: 06 Mar 2005
Posts: 2065
Location: Kansas
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| Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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And you could use that for Starfighter Piloting and the like as well?
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16259
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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| jmanski wrote: | | And you could use that for Starfighter Piloting and the like as well? |
That was my original proposition, but the response opinion seemed to be that a power with such a broad scope was unbalancing. IIRC, the final compromise was two different skills; one for personal combat, and one for vehicle combat.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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jmanski
Arbiter-General (Moderator)
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Location: Kansas
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| Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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I can dig that.
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Ankhanu
Vice Admiral
Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 3089
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 11:59 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, the LSC die code would form a pool to be split as the Jedi saw fit. This would offer a lot of tactical flexibility and some extra thought for the Jedi. The Jedi can choose round to round how they want to focus their efforts.
I didn't mention it, but I figured that if a Jedi wished to parry, attack and redirect a blaster bolt, it would be a three way split of the die pool, along with the standard MAPs for doing all three actions at once. Without complicating things much, it greatly reduces the Jedi's likelihood of success and gives the opportunity to really consider which actions are important.
That limitation is interesting. I kinda like it. I'll have to think about implementation and how it fits with my view of the Force, how it acts, can be accessed, etc. You and I often have fairly different perspectives on rules, cr, but I kinda like that one 
I have considered a more generalized approach to combat augmentation, as the lightsaber focus doesn't quite fit what we see in film and written material. In particular, I'd found the Darth Bane books (first one specifically) rather illuminating on the subject, and it delightfully illustrates the development of a Force sensitive to an adept, and how the Force influences and is influenced by each, based on their awareness and training.
The rule for using the Force untrained was an early attempt at this sort of exploration, before those books were published.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16259
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:06 am Post subject: |
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| Ankhanu wrote: | | I didn't mention it, but I figured that if a Jedi wished to parry, attack and redirect a blaster bolt, it would be a three way split of the die pool, along with the standard MAPs for doing all three actions at once. Without complicating things much, it greatly reduces the Jedi's likelihood of success and gives the opportunity to really consider which actions are important. |
I think it would be a more realistic fit to just make the difficulty higher on reflecting blaster bolts back. If you look at the physical actions involved, it isn't two separate acts; it's just two variations of the same parry, except that one requires a lot more precision than the other.
| Quote: | | That limitation is interesting. I kinda like it. I'll have to think about implementation and how it fits with my view of the Force, how it acts, can be accessed, etc. You and I often have fairly different perspectives on rules, cr, but I kinda like that one |
I will keep my eyes open for the other six signs of the coming of the Apocalypse 
| Quote: | | I have considered a more generalized approach to combat augmentation, as the lightsaber focus doesn't quite fit what we see in film and written material. In particular, I'd found the Darth Bane books (first one specifically) rather illuminating on the subject, and it delightfully illustrates the development of a Force sensitive to an adept, and how the Force influences and is influenced by each, based on their awareness and training. |
That was my thought exactly. I think that part of my idea was based on the conversation in the first book of that series, between Bane and Kazim the Blademaster, about why Jedi practice both with lightsabers and with increasing their knowledge of the Force.
My version was a combination of Lightsaber Combat and Combat Sense. I ultimately ended up coming up with different rules for how Control and Sense could be applied based on the weapon being used, then used the +2D bonus from Combat Sense as a minimum bonus (I figured that, even if a Jedi was forced to wield an unfamiliar weapon that he had never used or even seen before, the Force would still give him some guidance and advantage).
A more open Force Combat power also makes the Jedi more playable if he loses his lightsaber (which has happened to me more than once while playing a Jedi).
| Quote: | | The rule for using the Force untrained was an early attempt at this sort of exploration, before those books were published. |
On a side note, there is a section in the Tales Of The Jedi sourcebook that ha some interesting suggestions for roleplaying Jedi, including an optional rule for Jedi using Force skills untrained.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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