Uniform Frame of Reference

CRMcNeill · Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:45 am Post subject: Uniform Frame of Reference

One of the things that I find incredibly irritating about this forum is when I am involved in a discussion, and I make a point backed by evidence from an official source, and the response is something along the lines of "well, I don't accept that as an official source, so your argument isn't valid." At this point, we are no longer in THE Star Wars universe. We now occupy an alternate reality that just happens to share some of the same features.

AFAIAC, if you want to run your own alternate universe, more power to you, but when we are discussing stats and other rules, there needs to be a common frame of reference. When official material is introduced to support POVs in discussion, there needs to be some form of agreement as to what is and what is not in the SWU (and by extension, what is and is not available for referencing as evidence when discussing a stat or a house rule). If a point is made in discussion referencing official material from the EU novels, saying that you don't count the novels (or even the move film novels) as official is nothing but a cop-out.

If we're going to have a discussion about how things work in the SWU, we need to be able to present evidence from sources above and beyond the movie. After all, as we play the RPG, unless we are using the WEG rules to endlessly duplicate the original trilogy, we ourselves are part of the EU, including the movie adaptations. The film adaptations actually predate the RPG, for crying out loud. Every time we play an RPG with a Ghtroc Light Freighter or encounter a Lancer-Class Frigate or a Strike Cruiser, we are playing in the EU. We need to have some form of universally accepted frame of reference as to what constitutes official material in the EU and what does not.
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Rerun941 · Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:02 am Post subject:

We're talking about a fictional universe, playing games in it and having fun, each in his/her own way. There is no "right" or "wrong"

If you're sincere in your statement above, you probably need to find a new Star Wars D6 forum.
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CRMcNeill · Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:11 pm Post subject:

Rerun941 · Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:52 pm Post subject:

Welcome to Real Life (tm) opinion discussions...
What's the best Shakepearean play? Did he actually write them? Is God real? Did Han shoot first or did Greedo? Is Allah real? Who was the real Robin Hood? Do midicholrians exist? What's the best breed of dog? Are cats better than dogs? What's inside a Black Hole? Why are the Chicago Bears better than the Green Bay Packers?

As a wise friend of mine once said while we were having a discussion about religious beliefs. "We may not both be right, but we can definitely both be wrong. And we won't know the answer until it's too late."

Star Wars is a work of fiction and ought not to be taken so seriously as to be passed off as "fact" or cause discussions to become so heated as to break friendships.

I'm sure if you ask 10 people what makes Star Wars "Star Wars" you'll get 10 different answers. And guess what? That's reality and it's perfectly acceptable. If you try to force those 10 people to agree, you'll look like an @$$hole and a tyrant. If you stop and listen to them, respect their opinions (even if you disagree with them) you might gain some insight into your own interpretations of Star Wars. And you might even make a friend. Very Happy

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Han - "How're we doin'?"
Luke - "Same as always."
Han - "That bad, huh?"

Esoomian · Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:57 pm Post subject:

There are no hard and fast rules on what constitutes a valid source and if someone chooses to disbelieve a source then that's up to them. The other thing is that we don't all have the same level of knowledge. I certainly haven't read every Star Wars novel out there so I'd be unable to debate points from a source I'm not aware of.

As I understand it the Official rules section exists for people to discuss how they interperet the rules as WEG Star Wars set out. There isn't much call for quoting sources that aren't WEG rulebooks in that section it's more about discussing what would happen in a given situation when using the official rules or clarifying rules where the wording is open to interpretation.

The house rules section is more for coming up with rules that you think can make the game better or asking people to help you do the same. If someone doesn't have the same heirarchy of cannon as you do then agreements might be hard to find but what you have to remember is that we're all here because we love D6 Star Wars and we'd like to share our experiences with others. Convincing people isn't really the goal you don't win threads you're just looking to improve your own game by getting input from others and if you're lucky you might present an idea someone else likes and improve their game too.
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Whill · Last edited by Whill on Sat Jan 29, 2022 7:35 pm; edited 5 times in total

We're all just mostly posting opinions here. There is no overall hierarchy of validity that I am aware of. You post something and everyone each decides if what you posted is valid to them. You can't railroad someone into accepting your view is more valid. You can't make someone agree with you - for them to truly agree they have to come to that on their own. You can't make anyone give your post a stamp of validity. You state your case for something and each person either agrees or disagrees or doesn't care. And you do the same for other views. They can't railroad you if you don't let yourself feel that way. And sometimes people can't agree or explain their view clearly enough and it is often better to just walk away from it. This is supposed to be for fun. This is entertainment. These people are all just internet strangers or acquaintances. You can't take it all too seriously.

As far as EU and canon, I find that if you qualify clearly what you are posting about, there usually isn't too much trouble. If you are talking about the official canon in EU, you can't depend on a default frame of reference. You need to say that is what you are referring to. If I am talking about the way things work in my Star Wars universe, I will state that. Same thing with rules. If you are talking about RAW, state that. If you are referring to your house rule, qualify that. I don't see a lot of problems with this here.

There is no "THE" Star Wars Universe. Lucas himself said there is George's Universe, the Expanded Universe, and millions of Star Wars multiverses. They are all alternate realities of each other. If you post something about the official EU and someone replies with a tangent about their own universe, so be it! You can't stop that. You can't control what other people post. They don't have to accept or even reply to your point. Your point may not mean anything to them because it doesn't apply in their SW universe. We are all just sharing, and we will all just share whatever we want. That's what a forum is for - sharing info and ideas with others.

(And be weary about "THE" EU that you like to make points about so much. It is very self-contradictory in parts.)

There seems to be very few general consensus givens on this board, but I'll go out on a limb and call them out as I see them.

1. We don't publicly approve of discussing or sharing illegal downloads of published material.

2. The stat conversion book stats are done primarily by a few guys, and one of them seems to have the final say. They are open to suggestions and ideas from the rest of us. The official published WEG stats are a schizophrenic hodgepodge from many different authors. I believe that there was no unifying editing of the stats, so many inconsistencies and errors slipped in. In fact, I feel that many of the authors may not have been gamers so the stat assignments are almost arbitrary. The focus seems to be on the fluff text not the stats. My point is, the existing body of published WEG stats is a huge mess, and the stats guys here have not only worked to make their stats consistent with something that is very internally inconsistent itself, but also to be consistent with their own previous converted stats. And to take d20 and pound and bend it into D6 form is just an amazing feat as it is. I feel that their fan conversion stats as a whole are better than the official published stats, as a whole. But arguing over stats is just pointless. If you don't like a stat from WEG or the fan conversion book, don't argue that it should be different - Just change it to suit your game. There are no canon game stats in my mind.

3. We all should own a copy of Star Wars 2E R&E. At the very least, own 2E and the free rules upgrade. That doesn't mean you have to go by RAW or not use your own house rules. You can state your opinions of RAW good or bad here. Sometimes we discuss interpretations of RAW. Interpretations can vary, and that is ok. Sometimes we can just discuss what RAW even says. If you are posting from memory, it is ok to be wrong. But it is not acceptable to continually misquote and argue what RAW is if you are wrong. If someone say that is not correct, you need to get out your book and look it up before posting again. If you post from work and don't have your book, then you may not want to quote RAW until you can. If you don't own the book, go buy one for God's sake! (OK, I'm turning off rant mode now).

4. It is generally accepted here that we all have our own Star Wars Universes here, and that they don't have to be the same. See above.

I find that generally, people here are very tolerant and accepting (there have been exceptions). I'm a definitely minority in that I like the prequels and accept them as my personal canon (in my universe). Yet people do not disrespect me here much anymore. They may disagree, and that is ok. They are allowed too. They may not reply at all if they don't care about what I am choosing to share, and that is ok too. But they accept me as another Star Wars fan and D6 fan. I love this place.

crmcneill, if you find this forum "incredibly irritating" then why are you here? No one is making you log in and post here. If you can't accept that no one here has to accept any movie or official EU source as their own personal canon, you don't have to subject yourself to it.

EDIT: I kept finding misspelled words!
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Grimace · Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:19 am Post subject:

Well said, Whill. You and I don't agree on everything concerning Star Wars, but we can still discuss it with each other without having to be "right" or "wrong".

So, again, well said!

CRMcNeill · Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 2:48 am Post subject:

So, in essence, nothing to do with Star Wars has relevance in the game unless you or I believe it has relevance, and that relevance is relative, depending on who is the one who believes in the relevance, and any discussion on this forum can be brought to a screeching halt if someone utters the words "Well, that's not how it works in my universe" or "Well, I don't believe that story actually happened"...

How absurdly existential.

And for those of you who think I should up and leave for expressing an unpopular opinion (even one born out of a passing fit of frustration), it seems rather hypocritical of you to tell me that this is a forum where any opinion may be held and respected, then suggest that I leave for doing what you just told me I was allowed to do.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

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Blue Glowie · Ensign Joined: 01 Mar 2011 Posts: 29

One problem that immediately jumps to mind is that the game you're playing is inherently devoid of any official source material written in the last 15 years. So you're already at a disadvantage in trying to be in line with "canon". Incidentally, this is precisely one of the reasons I play this game; I don't have to look at pictures from the prequels, etc. Laughing

Rerun941 · Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:15 am Post subject:

Whill · Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 10:56 am Post subject:

Yes, how wonderfully "existential" this place is!

I wasn't suggesting anyone leave. I was just merely trying to point out that posting here is optional. I don't feel aynone should subject themselves to any unhappy experiences they are not required to. You've got to follow your bliss.

But cr, you posted a thread about posting in this forum so I replied to that. You are disgruntled about your experiences here. I was only replying to your feeling you've expressed. I wish you the best and hope you can find a way to be happy here.
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Bren · Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 11:09 am Post subject:

crmcneill, you have indicated you are frustrated with the style of discussion on this forum and with the fact that others don’t defer to canon when discussing or arguing. I had intended not to respond to your initial post, in part, because I did not think any reply that I made would truly be heard in the spirit I intended nor would it be likely to benefit you or enhance the tone and tenor of all our discussions. But now I feel compelled to make my point of view clear so there should be no mistake.

As I see it, you, like all of us, have three options.

1) Expect others on this forum to change what they believe and to agree with your own frame of reference regarding canon and to search for a single, approved answer to all questions. What you are hearing from others is that they aren’t going to change their frame of reference to match yours and they don’t see a need to reach a single answer to all questions.

2) Leave the forum because it is too frustrating for you to discuss and argue with people who don’t share your frame of reference and vision of Star Wars, your respect for canon, and who aren’t actually trying to always reach a one single, definitive, approved answer.

3) Learn to tolerate the ambiguity of multiple right answers, learn to accept the fact that others don’t defer to or agree with the hierarchy of canon that you revere, learn to respect others differing viewpoints, and stay on the forum and get what enjoyment you can out of discussing Star Wars D6 with people who share an interest in the D6 system and the Star Wars genre.

Ultimately, the choice is yours. Personally I hope you choose #3.

Henrik.Balslev · Commander Joined: 22 Apr 2006 Posts: 278 Location: Denmark

seems to me, the mature thing would be to simply agree to disagree - if and only if both or all participants in a discussion can do this, things can continue with everyone being, if not friends then, at least civil.
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garhkal · Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 5:23 pm Post subject:

There are several people i have leaned through the years to 'agree to disagree' with, and it has not made me wish to leave.
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jmanski · Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 5:33 pm Post subject:

crmcneill, I know you're frustrated, but realize that your frustration is born out of the fact that we are all opinionated and different.

You seem to be very rules oriented. That can be a good thing. But there are situations where rules cannot be imposed. Your first post in this thread seems to indicate that you want us to follow rules when giving you our opinion.

With all due respect: dude, that just aint gonna happen.

I suggest you take a deep breath, realize that each one of us has his/her own Star Wars universe, and that each of us doesn't neccessarily like or agree with anyone else's universe. We each have our own sandbox to play in. Some like to build castles. Some like to push their hotwheels around in it. Some like to bury firecrackers and blow stuff up. To each his own.

You have some interesting ideas. Just realize that everyone is not going to cheer for every idea you have. Its a roleplaying game we're talking about here. As long as everyone in each game is having fun then we are doing the right thing.

Don't let a few squabbles on this forum lead you to believe that your opinion is not valued or listened to. I've had a few "heated discussions" here with folks who are pretty calm and mild- and we still get along.

In short: relax and hang in there, I'd hate to see you go.
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