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Esoomian
High Admiral
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
Posts: 6207
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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 Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 9:40 pm Post subject: How do you make your D6 game/How do you argue? |
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We're all here because we like the WEG d6 system for the Star Wars setting but some of the recent posts have got me thinking.
What value do you give to the myrid of different contributions that make up the nature of Star Wars and how does that work in with your game?
For me I start with the WEG D6 rule system and all the books published for that. If it exists in WEG D6 then it could exist in any Star Wars game I run. I try to stick as closely to the rules/settings that WEG created as I can.
From there I move on to the original three movies. If something doesn't make sense in WEG or I really don't like the way a rule works then I'll try to work out some sort of logical fix based on those three movies.
After that I'll usually go to this site and see what other folks are doing, check with Wookieepedia and make a decision based on that.
After that I might trawl through the EU or check out the other Star Wars movies/TV shows.
I'm not actually asking what you think of as Star Wars (we already have that post) after all including the Vong in my idea of Star Wars has no impact on a game run in the Return of the Jedi era. What I'm actually asking is what is your heirarchy of validity?
As a side poll when you feel strongly enough to post about something how do you try to make your arguments?
I've seen a number of different styles here but I'll let people give their own takes on their style. My own style is probably more taking a gut feeling and then justifying than I'd like.
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jmanski
Arbiter-General (Moderator)
Joined: 06 Mar 2005
Posts: 2065
Location: Kansas
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| Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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My hierarchy:
WEG
Original Trilogy
EU
Prequels
As to my posting style... it's mostly what my gut tells me. Sometimes I have an answer but have to type it several times before it really comes off the way I want it to.
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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 10:29 pm Post subject: Re: How do you make your D6 game/How do you argue? |
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| Esoomian wrote: | We're all here because we like the WEG d6 system for the Star Wars setting but some of the recent posts have got me thinking.
What value do you give to the myrid of different contributions that make up the nature of Star Wars and how does that work in with your game? |
Interesting question, Esoomian.
I start with the WEG rules. We stick fairly close the the RAW, but have modified some rules, mostly in the direction of greater simplicity and have also made some changes to the force powers to make LS combat and a few powers easier for lower level Jedi, say 4D and below; while decreasing the effect and power for Jedi with higher skills. That's mostly to keep things a bit more balanced and interesting. It also helps that we're not trying to simulate the over the top Jedi action of the Clone Wars.
As regards the other materials. We seldom run any actual WEG scenarios, but do use a fair amount of the background information. I tend to pick and choose amongst what is there and modify where necessary to maintain consistency with the what-has-gone-before of our house campaign. For example, some later supplements have very inflated stats for characters, weapons, and equipment that need to be modified to align with earlier books and scenarios and with the level of power in our house campaigns. Also the capital ship stats are notoriously inconsistent, though they often work OK as is as a background about which the PCs in transports and starfighters must maneuver. So I modified capital ships to get more of the effect I wanted.
I see the original trilogy movies as illustrating what happens in the WEG rules and anything in those films should usually be possible to occur in the game. Other source materials: prequel films, novelizations, Radio plays, EU novels, Dark Horse Comics, whatnot I treat the same as the WEG supplemental materials. If it fits and seems to add to the campaign then in it may go. If not, then some retconning may be done or I just ignore it. the same applies to ideas here on the forum. I shamelessly steal ideas I like for our house campaign or house rules and unabashedly ignore ideas that don't fit or add.
The timeline for our house campaign runs to 20 pages so consistency when adding new material can take some work. We are only playing in the galactic civil war time period, so it makes it pretty easy not to worry about Sun Crushers, Yslamiri, Vong, and such. The Jedi order in the prequels conflicts with important house campaign character backgrounds so we just ignore or retcon aspects of the prequels as needed. That's one of the reasons the prequels don't have the same status as the original films.
| Quote: | | As a side poll when you feel strongly enough to post about something how do you try to make your arguments? |
Depends on the topic. For official rules threads I always try to go back and reread the rule. Twice when I have done that I've found my original intrepretation was wrong, so it's always good to refresh and saves silly and frustrating arguments that would be easily solved by properly reading the rules.
For house rules I think I argue in favor of simplicity, GM discretion, game balance, avoidance of new tables and lists, and the rule of cool. Not necessarily in that order. Also, if the RAW already addresses it, why change it?
For other things, analogy often works pretty well and my POV tends to be based on what feels like it maintains a Star Wars tone which, like pornography, may be difficult to define, but I know it when I see it. 
I try to argue logically, though that sometimes seems a vain pursuit (in both senses of the word) and I think one could certainly say I argue vigorously.
Since the original movies are the starting point of the tone and the game, I tend to place strong weight on those. But essentially we are playing a cooperative game and it should be fun for the players and the GM. Not a lock-step simulation of a set of films, books, video games, and what not. Unless you find that fun, I guess. 
Was that what you were looking for Esoomian? |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14133
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:59 am Post subject: |
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I start with the RAW, then incorporate the OT. Then i slide into the EU, but if/where the EU contradicts the RAW or OT, the RAW/OT overrides. If something needs clarification, or expansion, i come here or to the holonet for house ruling/guidance.
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Fallon Kell
Commodore
Joined: 07 Mar 2011
Posts: 1846
Location: Tacoma, WA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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I generally start with the concept of "What was the general consensus on canon in 1995?" Then I go watch an episode of Firefly. (I've found this works well for running a game out on the raggedy edge of the galaxy. I don't think Firefly will help that much with most campaigns. It makes me a nicer person to be around, though!)Then I look at Wookieepedia. I like to keep WEG rules in mind, but if something seems off to me, it gets house ruled.
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Or that excessively long "Noooooooooo" was the Whining Side of the Force leaving him. - Dustflier
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16259
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:36 am Post subject: |
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When I was first introduced to the SW-RPG on-line community, it was via AOL's SW-RPG mailing list in the late 90's. They were pretty orthodox about what trumped what with regards to the source material, but one thing they established was what they called the "Hierarchy of Canon", which is pretty much what I adhere to. The Hierarchy of Canon is the movies and all directly related material (specifically, the films themselves, the film novel adaptations, and the Brian Daley NPR radio dramas for the OT). The hierarchy stated that the films were paramount, and that any material that was actually in the films trumped everything else. The novels were the next step down, and their content was considered canon unless it contradicted the films. The radio dramas, in turn, were considered canon unless their material contradicted the films or the novels (but if the radio drama content contradicted the novels, but not the films, then the radio drama content was considered canon).
The way it generally ends up working is that:
-What happens in the films is what actually happened (although I tend to fudge it a bit if the novels or radio drama provide "alternate dialogue" that is superior, IMO).
-The novels give you insight into what the characters were thinking, as well as bringing in "deleted scene" material that wasn't actually in the films.
-The radio dramas also offer deleted scene material, plus they include alternate POVs for a scene (if you haven't heard the segment from ANH, with Han, Luke, Chewie, Obi-wan and the droids in the Falcon's smuggling compartments as the stormtroopers search the ship on the Death Star, you are missing out).
Granted, the dialogue wasn't always the best, even though the novels usually tried to explain what the character was thinking that caused them to say that. I often have wished that Lucas had brought in the dialogue writers for the radio drama to script the actual films
According to the SW-RPG list, those three items constituted "The Canon". Everything else was merely "Official". It was generally agreed that the novels were at the top of the official pile, but everyone had differing ideas as to how the rest of the official material fit in. Another factor was that there wasn't nearly the volume of EU material like there is now, so we had a lot less to work with. The general consensus was that the canon was the canon, and if you wanted to pretend that it happened differently, that's fine, but when we discuss rules and regulations, we quote the canon as fact.
Speaking for myself, I tend adhere to the hierarchy as described above (although I have become more flexible in application over the years). With regards to official material, the novels and any WEG material is usually tied at the top, and then I pick which trumps which on a case by case basis. It's no secret that I don't accept WEG as gospel, but the same is true of the novels, so I tend to pick and choose what seems to fit as seems appropriate. As far as the rest of the material (especially the video games), I consider them good sources of reference, but far from truly objective. This goes double for most of the comics (specifically anything by Dark Horse, although the X-Wing comics are usually pretty good).
My experience on the SW-RPG mailing list has affected my argumentation style, as well. I treat the canon as fact for purposes of interpreting the game and the WEG rules, and if WEG rules conflict with the canon, I have no issue with modifying WEG rules to fit. I think my biggest complaint about the "go your own way" crowd is to wonder how far can you drift away before it stops being Star Wars? After all, there needs to be some sort of common ground and agreement that certain events happened a certain way. If we don't have a basis of fact, then we have no accurate way to prove a valid point.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Fallon Kell
Commodore
Joined: 07 Mar 2011
Posts: 1846
Location: Tacoma, WA
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| Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 2:55 am Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | I think my biggest complaint about the "go your own way" crowd is to wonder how far can you drift away before it stops being Star Wars? After all, there needs to be some sort of common ground and agreement that certain events happened a certain way. If we don't have a basis of fact, then we have no accurate way to prove a valid point. |
I've thought a lot about that myself. My characters live out where the Empire does not often tread. I doubt they'll ever meet a Jedi or a Sith. They haven't dealt with any rebels or seen an X-wing. The culture is as much that of the crew of Serenity as much as that of Star Wars.
That said, they fly around on a modified CR90 corvette. They carry blasters. They run from Star Destroyers and shoot down TIEs.
I'd say it boils down to the fact that the Star Wars Galaxy is vast. I think there's room for a lot of localized leeway and a little creative re-interpretation.
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Or that excessively long "Noooooooooo" was the Whining Side of the Force leaving him. - Dustflier
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jmanski
Arbiter-General (Moderator)
Joined: 06 Mar 2005
Posts: 2065
Location: Kansas
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| Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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Creativity must come first. And each crowd must wander as they do so they can find the best Star Wars game for them.
What I find humorous is the arguments we get in over opinions and perceptions.
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Ankhanu
Vice Admiral
Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 3089
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 11:39 pm Post subject: |
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Gah, I was an idiot.
I had a reply mostly typed up... in the browser... but updated Firefox without saving it somewhere else. When the browser restarted, I lost my post 
I'll rewrite it later :/
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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Ankhanu wrote: | Gah, I was an idiot.
I had a reply mostly typed up... in the browser... but updated Firefox without saving it somewhere else. When the browser restarted, I lost my post
I'll rewrite it later :/ |
Yeah. I feel your pain. Last week the fan jammed on my laptop and the overheating caused it to repeatedly lock up. It took me three tries to finally get a reply posted. Very frustrating.  Computers, why can't they just be perfect? |
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Raven Redstar
Rear Admiral
Joined: 10 Mar 2009
Posts: 2648
Location: Salem, OR
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| Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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| If computers were perfect, we'd be getting steamrolled by advanced robots hell-bent on annihilating the parasite on earth known as the human race. |
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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Raven Redstar wrote: | | If computers were perfect, we'd be getting steamrolled by advanced robots hell-bent on annihilating the parasite on earth known as the human race. |
No. No. No. What you describe is not perfect. When I conceive of a perfect computer it is friendly, helpful, wonderful, kind...and starts up quickly. |
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Raven Redstar
Rear Admiral
Joined: 10 Mar 2009
Posts: 2648
Location: Salem, OR
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| Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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| I wish my would self upgrade for free.... |
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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Raven Redstar wrote: | | I wish my would self upgrade for free.... |
And often I wish mine would stop trying to upgrade.  The old software worked fine and didn't cause the new conflicts.  |
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JT Swift
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 10 Oct 2009
Posts: 132
Location: Austin Texas
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| Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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When ever I run into a contradiction or question I usually look at things in this order…
Top most is the Feel of the movies (Classic then Prequels).
Then the nutz and bolts continuity of the movies.
Then the continuity of the novels.
Then West End’s continuity.
But a word on that.
I’ve seen enough contradictions in West End’s material [sometime on the same page!] that I developed the following rules for resolving contradictions…
1. Go with the ‘flavor’ text. What does it SAY?
2. Then go with any illustrations
3. And then, go with the stat write ups.
If everything is in agreement then fine. But I’ve seen to many great ideas in the text ruined by stats (or illustrations) that don’t accomplish what the writer set out to do.
After West End’s stuff I’ve got Wookieepedia, the comics, the cartoons, and WOTC’s D20 sourcebooks.
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