| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
|
 Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 5:01 pm Post subject: Offsetting high power PCs with difficulty numbers |
 |
|
I recall mention in first edition of adjusting difficulty numbers in scenarios based on PC skill level or party size. So a moderate roll for beginning characters might be 11 while for experienced characters the same roll to succeed might be a 15. This also seems useful to slightly adjust the challenge for a party of mixed skill levels so that the adventure is interesting and challenging for both higher and lower powered characters.
For example, a beginning character might have a best skill, say blaster, at 6D, while an advanced character who did not focus on blaster might, by virtue of CPs also have a 6D blaster skill. Both characters are shooting at some stormtroopers at the same (medium) range, so the difficulty is moderate. By setting the respective difficulty number to 11 and 15 both characters are challenged. And if the new character actually has a higher skill than the exprienced character, the effect is even more profound.
Thoughts? |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14135
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 5:45 am Post subject: |
|
|
This is how our sparks group does it.
Each game session, averages 7cp. 10 max for the #1 rper for that table.
7 games = one "SHEET" for updates.
1 sheet updates = 49cp averaged out.
Each module is set at a base tier of sheet 1. As the pc's get up there in their "sheet number" things are added.
A base tier exists, that goes something like:
Sheet 1-2. No mods
Sheet 3-4. +1d to 1 primary skill
Sheet 5-6. +2d to primary skill
sheet 7-8. +2d primary and +1d to a secondary skill
and so on.
You can also have specific tiering. Such as i like to do with specific baddies.
EG Sith apprentice is well known for us use of the Double bladed force pike (think two headed spear with a small axe blade)..
Tier 1-3 his stats are
Dex 2d+2. Blaster 5d+1 (S) Pistols 8d, Dodge 7d, Grenade 3d+2 (S) Stun grenade, Melee attack 6d (s) DBFP 9d+1*, Melee parry 6d+1 (S) DBFP 9d+2*, running 6d+2
Know 3d. Alien species 5d1, Languages 4d+2 (S) Aqualish, shirwook, hutt and nemodian, Law enforcement 6d+1, streetwise 8d, Jedi lore 5d+1,
and so on.
Contol 6d+2, Sense 7d+1, Alter 7d
As the tiers raise up, those skills with * by them get a small boost. Usually starting with 2-3 times at 1d. Then they drop to +2 for a little, then to +1 for a few blocks..
Sometimes the tier goes 1-3/4-6/7-9, sometimes it is 1=4/5-8/9=12..
_________________
Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 7:07 am Post subject: |
|
|
Hi garhkal. I remember you wrote about the Spark's sheets last year in a prior thread. Let me ask some questions to see if I am understanding it. | garhkal wrote: | This is how our sparks group does it...1 sheet updates = 49cp averaged out.
So the players take the same PC from game to game with different GMs, and they spend the CPs to up their skills (more or less) as per the RAW right?
Each module is set at a base tier of sheet 1. As the pc's get up there in their "sheet number" things are added...
A base tier exists, that goes something like:
Sheet 1-2. No mods
Sheet 3-4. +1d to 1 primary skill...
So the dice adds are to the opponents' skills, right?
Is that same add to each opponent including mooks or just to the big bad?
...As the tiers raise up, those skills with * by them get a small boost. Usually starting with 2-3 times at 1d. Then they drop to +2 for a little, then to +1 for a few blocks..
Sometimes the tier goes 1-3/4-6/7-9, sometimes it is 1=4/5-8/9=12.. |
This last bit just confused me, but let's explore that after I see if I got the first parts correct. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14135
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 8:55 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Bren wrote: | | So the players take the same PC from game to game with different GMs, and they spend the CPs to up their skills (more or less) as per the RAW right? |
That is correct. If you do NOT sign up for our group, you can play the same character event by event, day after day at the same convention. But not from that convention to another one.
If you do sign up (one year, 10 bucks) and become a member, that changes and you can use the same character convention after convention.. well as many as you can get to.
EG
Jan (new years) Verncon - chicago suburbs of napperville. 4 days
Feb Fire and ice, wisconsin (can't remember where). 3 days
March, Cod con..
and so on..
If you can, you can hit all the conventions, game days, etc that Sparks hit, and play upwards of around 90 or so gaming sessions...
| Bren wrote: | So the dice adds are to the opponents' skills, right?
Is that same add to each opponent including mooks or just to the big bad? |
Yup. As to each.. Most. Some gm's apply it to EVERY enemy, some just to important ones (eg if Scene 3 calls for standard 2 sqaud of imps, after 15th round 3rd group of stormies come in as reinforcements, just the first 2 usually would be tiered).
Some do it for just named NPCs. Some modules even just specify what Npc's in each module are to be tiered.
| Bren wrote: | | This last bit just confused me, but let's explore that after I see if I got the first parts correct. |
Normally the tier is based on a 1-2/3-4/5-6 ratio. EG, every odd sheet ups the baddies. Some do it every 3 sheets.. 4 sheets, heck even 5.
Now some of my fellow spark players have shown up on this site (courtesy of my pushing it), and confused an update sheet, with a 'character update sheet'.
The latter is a single page of info, which is split into 3 "blocks" or gaming sessions worth of info.
Module name/number, convention played at, gm who ran it, character played, player controlling character, CP earned/spent, Force points spent/awarded, DSP awarded, Credits spent/earned, Equipment gained/lost, Skills increased, Info/notes..
So you can use it to keep track of 3 gaming sessions worth of stuff.
When we take those update sheets, and actually go into a program to actually DO the update (change everythng in the database to make note of what you have accomplished), each sessions worth of info makes for 1 line in the "update" block. 7 Such sessions equal one such update, hence the 'sheet'...
If you Write one gaming module, that is worth 10cp, and is 1 line on its own for an update.
Editing it (several people do this exclusively) gets you 9cp.
Each running of a Gaming module (any) nets you as the GM, 1cp per session of running it each at a con. So if you gm 7 sessions, that is 7cp.
10cp worth of gming slots nets you one line. OR 7 sessions straight from just one con (i have had several like that myself)..
EG Update reason / Convention Cp earned / spent / total / FP earned / Spent / Total / DSPs received.
Authoring Sparks *** Gencon 2010 10 / 4 / 13 / 3 / 3 / 5 / 0
Gming Gencon 2010 7 / 8/ /12 / 0 / 0 / 5 / 0
GMing Codcon/Conclave 2010 10 / 10 / 12 / 0 / 0 / 5 / 0
Playing Sparks *** Blah con 2010 8 / 10 / 10 / 3 / 1 / 3 / 1
and so on...
_________________
Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 9:31 am Post subject: |
|
|
| garhkal wrote: | | That is correct. |
Thanks for explaining. Sparks adjusts the difficulty for the whole party based (presumably) on their total or average or median experience. That is a bit different than what I was looking for.
What I am describing (see above) is a way of allowing PCs of mixed levels to run on the same adventure by using the range for difficulties in the RAW to make experienced characters at the top of the range and new characters at the bottom of the range. It is a metagame play-balance mechanic that I seem to recall WEG described in the old 1E scenarios.
The idea is to increase the challenge for experienced characters and to prevent new characters from being superfluous.
I was wondering if anyone had used that. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ZzaphodD
Rear Admiral
Joined: 28 Nov 2009
Posts: 2426
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 3:28 pm Post subject: Re: Offsetting high power PCs with difficulty numbers |
|
|
| Bren wrote: | I recall mention in first edition of adjusting difficulty numbers in scenarios based on PC skill level or party size. So a moderate roll for beginning characters might be 11 while for experienced characters the same roll to succeed might be a 15. This also seems useful to slightly adjust the challenge for a party of mixed skill levels so that the adventure is interesting and challenging for both higher and lower powered characters.
For example, a beginning character might have a best skill, say blaster, at 6D, while an advanced character who did not focus on blaster might, by virtue of CPs also have a 6D blaster skill. Both characters are shooting at some stormtroopers at the same (medium) range, so the difficulty is moderate. By setting the respective difficulty number to 11 and 15 both characters are challenged. And if the new character actually has a higher skill than the exprienced character, the effect is even more profound.
Thoughts? |
Cant really see this happening in my games. If the target number for Noobie to hit that stormtrooper is 15 based on all circumstance, Gruntie will have the same difficulty number. Not challenged? Then step up your game!
_________________
My Biggest Beard Retard award goes to: The Admiral of course.. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14135
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 5:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Bren wrote: |
Thanks for explaining. Sparks adjusts the difficulty for the whole party based (presumably) on their total or average or median experience. That is a bit different than what I was looking for. |
Yup. Normally what ever the table tier is, applies to all. Some modules specify that X is tiered only to those who tier it. Like say baddie jedi is tiered to just the force users, gaining +1 in all 3 of his force powers for every D a PC force user has.
| Bren wrote: |
What I am describing (see above) is a way of allowing PCs of mixed levels to run on the same adventure by using the range for difficulties in the RAW to make experienced characters at the top of the range and new characters at the bottom of the range. It is a metagame play-balance mechanic that I seem to recall WEG described in the old 1E scenarios.
|
Fare enough.. Perhaps you could base it of something similar..
Each 50cp the party earn, adds 4 to the difficulty.
_________________
Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 8:04 am Post subject: Re: Offsetting high power PCs with difficulty numbers |
|
|
| ZzaphodD wrote: | | Cant really see this happening in my games. If the target number for Noobie to hit that stormtrooper is 15 based on all circumstance, Gruntie will have the same difficulty number. Not challenged? Then step up your game! |
I didn't follow you.  What do you mean by "step up your game?" Who is doing the stepping and what does that consist of? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jmanski
Arbiter-General (Moderator)
Joined: 06 Mar 2005
Posts: 2065
Location: Kansas
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 5:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I think he means do more. If it's easy to hit one trooper at difficulty 15, then shoot at two. Or three. Or use other skills.
_________________
Blasted rules. Why can't they just be perfect? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 6:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| jmanski wrote: | | I think he means do more. If it's easy to hit one trooper at difficulty 15, then shoot at two. Or three. Or use other skills. |
Got it. Thanks for clarifying. That works for combat. Not always for other areas where time is perhaps not so critical e.g. KNO or TEC skills or where the PC may not be doing multiple things e.g. PER.
Starting characters typically only have a few skills above 4D and maybe only 1 or 2 at 6D or more. Experienced characters end up with many skills at or above 4D and multiple skills at 6D and above. Part of my thought was to avoid the situation where the new character has a good skill at 5D or 6D and wants to use it, but the experienced character can do just as well with what is a secondary or tertiary skill for the experienced character. By setting the difficulty at the low end for the newbie and at the high end for the veteran it encourages the newbie to do the things they are good at. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jmanski
Arbiter-General (Moderator)
Joined: 06 Mar 2005
Posts: 2065
Location: Kansas
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 6:04 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I see what you are going for. In my opinion a task shouldn't be harder because you are better at it as it seems like you are punishing more experienced players.
_________________
Blasted rules. Why can't they just be perfect? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 6:25 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| jmanski wrote: | | I see what you are going for. In my opinion a task shouldn't be harder because you are better at it as it seems like you are punishing more experienced players. |
You raise a good point. That's not the goal. Though I grant it is an effect. The goal is to make it more fun for the less experienced character to run with the veterans by letting them have important things to do, not just to be extra blaster carriers, and to provide a bit of extra challenge for the more experienced without setting the scenario difficulty too high for the newbies. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14135
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 11:13 pm Post subject: |
|
|
To me it just means a more experienced enemy set things harder for you to succeed at..
_________________
Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
atgxtg
Rear Admiral
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
Posts: 2460
|
| Posted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 2:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
That is the problem with WEG using a variable difficulty range when assigning all thier tasks in adventures.
Originally, the difficulties were in fixed increments of 5. The variable ranges allowed GMs to lower the difficulty to that characters could potentially make moderate rolls with 2D skill, or difficult ones with 3D. (Back in first edition, prior to the rules upgrade, my Pcs caught on that Stromtroopers with 3D blaster couldn't roll a 20. The PCs would keep the troopers at long range and waltz through the encounter.)
After the rules upgrade, the GM could pick a lower difficulty to giive the characters a chance of succeess. once the PCs goet good, the lower difficulties were too easy, and GMs started to gravitate towards the higher end again to keep things challenging.
Once 2E came out, the wild die, and the ability to spend character points, solved the "no chance of success" problem, and WEG probably should have gone to a fixed dificulty for tasks in adventures. Moderate/12, or Moderate /14 for various tasks. . |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ZzaphodD
Rear Admiral
Joined: 28 Nov 2009
Posts: 2426
|
| Posted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 3:10 pm Post subject: Re: Offsetting high power PCs with difficulty numbers |
|
|
| Bren wrote: | | ZzaphodD wrote: | | Cant really see this happening in my games. If the target number for Noobie to hit that stormtrooper is 15 based on all circumstance, Gruntie will have the same difficulty number. Not challenged? Then step up your game! |
I didn't follow you. What do you mean by "step up your game?" Who is doing the stepping and what does that consist of? |
Increase the number of foes, make conditions harder (bad visibility, firing from moving vehicle, etc). In short, dont alter 'reality' because the characters become more powerful, it will only frustrate them and make the GM seem a bit daft.
_________________
My Biggest Beard Retard award goes to: The Admiral of course.. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
