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Grimace
Captain
Joined: 11 Oct 2004
Posts: 729
Location: Montana; Big Sky Country
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 Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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Well, since you bring it up, this is why I always write it as "canon", as people use it so incorrectly.
From Webster's Third New International Dictionary (unabridged)
canon
1: a decree, decision, regulation, code or constitution made by ecclesiastical authority. 2: a fundamental and relatively unchangeable part of the Roman Catholic mass containing the fixe rule according to which the sacrifice of the mass is to be offered. 3: a collection or authoritative list of books accepted as holy scripture.
I don't see anything in those three that would quantify as something that Lucas could do or that anything Star Wars would qualify for.
Pretty much everything that people tout as "canon" would better be described as official.
official
1: performing a function or service. 2: belonging or relating to an office, position or trust. 3: holding an office or serving in a public postion. 4: derived from the proper office or authority.
So, if Lucas is putting out stuff saying his stuff is the only true material, that's official, not canon. |
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Rerun941
Commander
Joined: 27 Jul 2004
Posts: 459
Location: San Antonio, TX
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| Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | But I assumed Rerun meant, "Canon is only meaningful or necessary if you accept it as such...I do not." |
My whole point was to get people to quit blindly following Lucas like sheep. Have fun in your own vision of Star Wars and don't worry about incorporating everything that gets published (official, "canon" or otherwise).
(In this poster's opinion, most of what has been produced in recent years has been utter rubbish anyway.)
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Han - "That bad, huh?" |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16320
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | True by definition.
But I assumed Rerun meant, "Canon is only meaningful or necessary if you accept it as such...I do not." |
Well said. The distinction in terminology is important, but ultimately, the RPG allows each of us to create our own version of the SWU in a manner that works for us. Personally, I find that the movies make a little more sense if one reads the novels, as it fills in a lot of the information as to why the character's behaved the way they did in the films, insofar as their thought processes and events that occurred off-screen that have a bearing on the story.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Black 5
Cadet
Joined: 01 Dec 2008
Posts: 18
Location: South California
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| Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 12:54 am Post subject: |
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I can show you Imperial Cannnon that states that Alderaan was never blown up by the Death Star but destroyed by a Rebel secret weapon that malfunctioned...  |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16320
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:51 am Post subject: |
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| Grimace wrote: | Well, since you bring it up, this is why I always write it as "canon", as people use it so incorrectly.
From Webster's Third New International Dictionary (unabridged)
canon
1: a decree, decision, regulation, code or constitution made by ecclesiastical authority. 2: a fundamental and relatively unchangeable part of the Roman Catholic mass containing the fixe rule according to which the sacrifice of the mass is to be offered. 3: a collection or authoritative list of books accepted as holy scripture.
I don't see anything in those three that would quantify as something that Lucas could do or that anything Star Wars would qualify for.
Pretty much everything that people tout as "canon" would better be described as official.
official
1: performing a function or service. 2: belonging or relating to an office, position or trust. 3: holding an office or serving in a public postion. 4: derived from the proper office or authority.
So, if Lucas is putting out stuff saying his stuff is the only true material, that's official, not canon. |
English is a language constantly in flux, and in this case, canon has acquired an additional meaning derived from popular usage. For whatever reason, Star Wars has acquired a status "above" that of official, mostly due to the dedication of its fans. In essence, Lucas has created a "universe" that we all come and play in. In that universe, he is the defacto god. In that universe, he gets to make the rules. He is surprisingly lenient, in that the only "decree, decision, regulation, code or constitution" he has handed down is roughly thus:
"Gospel, or canon as we refer to it, includes the screenplays, the films, the radio dramas and the novelizations. These works spin out of George Lucas' original stories, the rest are written by other writers. However, between us, we've read everything, and much of it is taken into account in the overall continuity. The entire catalog of published works comprises a vast history — with many off-shoots, variations and tangents — like any other well-developed mythology."
-Sue Rostoni and Allan Kausch, Lucas Licensing, Star Wars Insider #23, July 1994.-
We are not told that we have to play within the strictures of the canon, merely that our off-shoot works do not alter the canon as defined by George Lucas et al. Personally speaking, as many issues as I have with the shoddy writing of the sequels, I prefer to play as though those events actually occurred, and I use the novels and other supplemental material to provide justification as to why things happened the way they did.
| Rerun941 wrote: | My whole point was to get people to quit blindly following Lucas like sheep. Have fun in your own vision of Star Wars and don't worry about incorporating everything that gets published (official, "canon" or otherwise).
(In this poster's opinion, most of what has been produced in recent years has been utter rubbish anyway.) |
Rerun, no one is going to force you to play in a world you don't like, but not all of us approach the issue from the same perspective. You seem to treat adherence to the canon as willful blindness and worthy of admission into the seven deadly sins. "Trying to get people to quit blindly following Lucas like sheep" is a rather extreme point of view when you are discussing influencing the freely held opinions of others.
Hyperbole aside, if we are going to have discussions on the nature of the SWU, we need to have a common frame of reference. The movies, the source of the entire SWU, are at the very core of that common frame of reference. How can we have a discussion about vehicles or events or Force powers that are based on the foundation of the prequel trilogy if you refuse to admit that that trilogy actually happened? We need to have a common ground to discuss our various points, and without a solid source to refer to, we will all just be sitting here yelling at each other. Of course, that seems to be what happens anyway...
Bottom line, we are all here because of our love for the SWU in general, and D6 roleplaying in said universe in particular. If there is one lesson that I have learned here, it is that people are entitled to their own viewpoints. Just because they are different from yours does not make them right or wrong, and trying to tell people that their opinions are wrong based primarily on the fact that they are not the same opinions as yours is a very quick way to start a fight.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14214
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 2:42 am Post subject: |
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| Black 5 wrote: | | I can show you Imperial Cannnon that states that Alderaan was never blown up by the Death Star but destroyed by a Rebel secret weapon that malfunctioned... |
I thought it was that the rebels took over an imperial mining ship and destructed it over Alderann..
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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:56 am Post subject: |
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| Grimace wrote: | Well, since you bring it up, this is why I always write it as "canon", as people use it so incorrectly.
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Webster's Third New International Dictionary was published in 1961 so I thought I would check something a bit more recent.
Canon - 5. b. The works of a writer that have been accepted as authentic: the entire Shakespeare canon.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/canon
Which seems to fit the intended use here. No need for the quotes. |
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Random Numbers
Commander
Joined: 12 Jan 2010
Posts: 454
Location: Gladsheim
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| Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 8:04 am Post subject: |
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Around here it is canon to excessively use the term canon in the discussion, so whether the dictionaries support our canon being canon or not canon here it’s canon. But it’s nice to know canon means canon.
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Rerun941
Commander
Joined: 27 Jul 2004
Posts: 459
Location: San Antonio, TX
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| Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:48 am Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Rerun, no one is going to force you to play in a world you don't like, but not all of us approach the issue from the same perspective. You seem to treat adherence to the canon as willful blindness and worthy of admission into the seven deadly sins. "Trying to get people to quit blindly following Lucas like sheep" is a rather extreme point of view when you are discussing influencing the freely held opinions of others. |
My comments started the moment that hazardchris said "I agree [that the novel is rubbish], but that's part of the canon. If it weren't for the Traviss novels, I wouldn't give a d*mn about the prequel era."
That is the blind devotion that I'm talking about. Basically, "I don't like it, but I HAVE to accept it since Lucas published it."
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Han - "How're we doin'?"
Luke - "Same as always."
Han - "That bad, huh?" |
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Rerun941
Commander
Joined: 27 Jul 2004
Posts: 459
Location: San Antonio, TX
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| Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:48 am Post subject: |
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| Random Numbers wrote: | | Around here it is canon to excessively use the term canon in the discussion, so whether the dictionaries support our canon being canon or not canon here it’s canon. But it’s nice to know canon means canon. |
Can I fire a cannon at the canon? 
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Han - "That bad, huh?" |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16320
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Rerun941 wrote: | | Random Numbers wrote: | | Around here it is canon to excessively use the term canon in the discussion, so whether the dictionaries support our canon being canon or not canon here it’s canon. But it’s nice to know canon means canon. |
Can I fire a cannon at the canon? |
You can certainly fire a cannon at your canon, so long as you leave my canon alone. 8)
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Rerun941 wrote: | | Can I fire a cannon at the canon? |
Sure. But leave my petard alone. If you want one, you'll have to hoist your own.  |
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hazardchris
Commander
Joined: 01 Nov 2005
Posts: 362
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| Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Guys, it's a made-up universe. Let's all take a breath, shake hands, agree that we all enjoy Star Wars, and then go about our day rather than get into some silly argument about canonization of various aspects of the lore. |
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Rerun941
Commander
Joined: 27 Jul 2004
Posts: 459
Location: San Antonio, TX
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| Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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| hazardchris wrote: | | Guys, it's a made-up universe. Let's all take a breath, shake hands, agree that we all enjoy Star Wars, and then go about our day rather than get into some silly argument about canonization of various aspects of the lore. |
You know what this thread needs?
MORE CANON! erm, I mean, COWBELL!!!
*ponders the Throne room scene in ROTJ with Christopher Walken as the Emperor and Will Farrell in a Vader suit holding a cowbell and a drumstick*
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Luke - "Same as always."
Han - "That bad, huh?" |
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Random Numbers
Commander
Joined: 12 Jan 2010
Posts: 454
Location: Gladsheim
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| Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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| hazardchris wrote: | | Guys, it's a made-up universe. Let's all take a breath, shake hands, agree that we all enjoy Star Wars, and then go about our day rather than get into some silly argument about canonization of various aspects of the lore. |
There seem to be a lot of those these days...
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