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CRMcNeill
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 Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 5:18 pm Post subject: Willpower and DSPs |
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This is a concept that has come out in two other forum topics, but the subject is of sufficient interest and complexity that I decided to give it its own topic, in the hopes that it will get more of a response.
In the SWU, it seems relatively clear that getting a DSP is something that happens when you lose control, at least as far as non-FS characters are concerned. However, in the WEG RAW, earning DSPs seems almost entirely a voluntary process, and it's a very rare occasion when a player character makes a deliberately evil act. IMO, deliberately evil acts are the sort of things committed only by characters who have already turned to the Dark Side. Unfortunately, the RAW seems to place far too much control of this in the player's hands. I think this rule should be modified to reflect that evil acts which would earn a character a DSP are a result of a loss of control, rather than a conscious decision.
In game terms, this would mean that, if the character found himself in a stressful situation, such as seeing a friend or loved one get murdered, or falling victim to a Sith's successful use of Dun Moch, the character would be forced to make a Willpower roll to maintain control of his emotions. If he fails, he is subject to the following mandatory requirements: He must take some sort of Dark Side inspired action, such as trying to kill his opponent. He must automatically spend a FP on the attack, along with the attendant bonuses, and he gains an automatic DSP. Similar rules could also be worked out for characters acting out of fear (i.e. running away and abandoning friends to near certain death), as opposed to anger or aggression.
Subsequent to this mandatory action, the character would be in emotional crisis, dealing with feelings of guilt and shame, but also with the sick pleasure of how good it felt to give free reign to such powerful emotions. At this point, some additional roll would be needed for the character to want to begin the atonement process as described in the RAW. I'm leaning towards it being another Willpower roll, but I am open to suggestions.
Until the character decides to atone (i.e. succeeds on the Willpower roll to begin the atonement process), he is still emotionally unstable, and any subsequent Willpower rolls to resist the Dark Side will be penalized. If the character is atoning, no penalties are applied to subsequent rolls (in fact, a bonus may be in order, as a person who is atoning for an evil act feels an added commitment to control themselves).
What I'm looking for from the forum are suggestions as to Willpower difficulty levels and modifiers that reflect various stressful situations that characters may face.
This is the basic idea. I'm also considering sub-sections of this rule to reflect cybernetic implants and various "gray area" Force powers. Those are coming next.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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In my games, as long as a player has 0 DSPs he is in total control of his actions (mind control and the like aside).
However, as we recently discussed, I have removed the rule about how non force sensitives gains DSPs. In the RAW the character must spend a FP while deliberately committing evil, which means he will only get a DSP when he wants one. In my games non force sensitives can get DSPs from 'normal' (ie non FP) actions. Its up to me, the GM, to determine when (I also have a form of mini-DSPs that in essential is a 'pip' DSP) when an action is 'evil' but not evil enough for a DSP (which for a non force sensitive is quite evil indeed).
Also, in the RAW, the GM should inform a player about to recieve a DSP, essentially warning the player. If its a force sensitive character I might let them roll a Jedi Lore check to see wether they know that their action (or course of action) is a dangerous one. If they succeed (I think both has about 2-3D...) I warn them if they dont seem to 'into it' in which case I usually dont.
Of course, once the characters have a DSP 'The Will of the Dark Side' will try to influence their behaviour from then on. THIS is resistend with Control (-no of DSPs) or Willpower.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | | Also, in the RAW, the GM should inform a player about to recieve a DSP, essentially warning the player. If its a force sensitive character I might let them roll a Jedi Lore check to see whether they know that their action (or course of action) is a dangerous one. If they succeed (I think both has about 2-3D...) I warn them if they dont seem to 'into it' in which case I usually dont. |
My problem with this is that, in the canon, it always seems as thought events that would incur a DSP are a result of a loss of control on the character's part, while the RAW seems to make it almost entirely a conscious decision. IMO, the best way to reflect that loss of control in gameplay would be to make it the result of a failed dice roll, as opposed to leaving it up to the character and the GM. I have often noticed a sort of tacit conspiracy by players and GMs to white wash DSP situations so as to protect the character as a PC (i.e. to keep them from turning to the Dark Side and becoming an NPC).
[Interlude]
GM: You have a helpless prisoner bound and gagged at your feet. What do you do?
Player: This guy killed my pet nerf. I'm gonna shoot him!
GM: Are you sure? That would earn you a DSP...
Player: Uhhhhhhh.....
GM: Would you like to use a lifeline? Maybe Phone A Friend or Poll The Audience?
Player: Uhhhhhm.... No, I'm gonna shoot 'im.
GM: Is that your final answer?
[End Interlude]
A failed Willpower roll wouldn't even necessarily mean that the character "completely lost control" (even if that is how they choose to rationalize it later), merely that they gave in to their anger or fear and killed just because they could. Regardless of the character's mindset, however, this rule would cover the idea that, for whatever reason, the character lost control of himself, gave into the Dark Side, and now he must deal with the consequences. In addition, a rule like this would side step the wimpy GM issue, by making it a rule that was outside of GM discretion, and was now something that had to be faced and dealt with. if it occurs.
Also, I'm not sure exactly how Jedi Lore would apply, because at its root, the Dark Side is about giving in to strong negative emotional impulses, and resisting that impulse would be a Willpower issue.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 6:28 pm Post subject: Willpower and "Gray Area" Force Powers |
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By making Willpower they key to resisting the power of the Dark Side, it becomes a definite skill of interest for any Force user who wants to keep his character on the Light Side. In addition, it works the idea of the Dark Side being "quicker, easier (and) more seductive" into the rules. After all, if a Jedi has to split his CPs between Lightsaber, Control, Sense, Alter and Willpower, he progresses more slowly than a Sith Lord who could care less about the Dark Side penalties of failing a Willpower roll.
EDIT: In fact, I would even be willing to impose a Willpower bonus / penalty on Jedi characters equal to the difference between the Jedi's highest Force skill value and his Willpower skill level, emphasizing the importance of a Jedi learning to control themselves just as much as they learn to use the Force.
Subsequent to my original post, I have always felt that there are certain Force powers that grant a DSP when none seem warranted. The most obvious explanation is that, while these powers seem to have an innocuous effect, the emotional energy that drives them is the key to their dark nature. In addition, as the SWU has expanded, new Force powers have been introduced, and new facets of existing powers have also been revealed. The most obvious example is that of Electric Judgment; the Light Side alternative to Force Lightning. The general consensus has been to make new Force powers to reflect the new described abilities, but I have a different theory. I think that existing powers should be modified to reflect the new abilities.
In addition, I believe that several "border line" powers on the Force Powers list should be modified so that they exist in a moral "gray area". In game terms, this would mean that certain powers that gain the user a Mandatory DSP for use should be altered so that a Jedi may use them and not receive a DSP, if they pass a Willpower check to control the negative emotions that are the fuel for the Dark Side. A general list would include:
Injure/Kill and TK/Kill - These powers would now include the option to Stun, but only if the Jedi passes a Willpower check to mitigate the damage (This would explain Luke being able to Force Choke the Gamorrean guards at Jabba's palace in ROTJ).
Electric Judgment and Force Lightning - I would fold these two into the same power, with the same restrictions listed above, in that a Jedi can inflict Stun damage if he successfully controls his emotions.
Telekinesis - A Jedi could attack an opponent with a TK object to inflict stun damage, subject to a Willpower roll.
Electronic Manipulation, Force Wind, Doppelganger, Memory Wipe and Drain Energy* - Normal use without DSP, subject to Willpower
Morichro and Place Another In Hyperspace Trance - Rather than two powers, just change Place Another to reflect that it can be used on an unwilling subject at a higher difficulty level. I'm sure there are others. but these are the ones I can think of right now.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 6:44 pm Post subject: Willpower, DSPs and Cybernetics |
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In a recent discussion under another topic, there were multiple opposing viewpoints on whether or not elective cybernetic implants should result in automatic DSPs. I'm personally opposed to this rule, as well as the Cybernetics Optional Rule in Pirates and Privateers whereby a character with cybernetics receives additional DSPs for evil acts. I'm opposed to this rule for a variety of reasons; an evil act is an evil act regardless of how many cybernetic limbs the perpetrator has, a cybernetic implant is essentially an inanimate object that has no motivation towards good or evil outside of the person wielding it, and there is no scientifically valid evidence in the canon to suggest that cybernetics make a character more evil (people can say that Vader is a perfect example all that they want, but you will never convince me that he wasn't completely lost to evil long before he ended up in that suit).
However, I am willing to concede that persons with cybernetic implants, elective or otherwise, may deal with issues of a perceived loss of humanity. To reflect that in the Willpower DSP rules I am proposing, I would suggest that persons with extensive cybernetic implants be subject to Willpower penalties when making rolls to resist the Dark Side. These penalties would vary based on whether the implant was elective or medically necessary in nature, but would primarily be based on whether the implant is a simple replacement or an enhancement (my theory here is that the character's superhero complex would make them more prone to acting without thinking the matter through properly, and get them in trouble).
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Raven Redstar
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| Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Also, I'm not sure exactly how Jedi Lore would apply, because at its root, the Dark Side is about giving in to strong negative emotional impulses, and resisting that impulse would be a Willpower issue. |
I think he was talking more about Jedi lore roll lets the player get information as to whether or not the action that they're thinking about taking would lead to a dark side point.
| Quote: | | However, I am willing to concede that persons with cybernetic implants, elective or otherwise, may deal with issues of a perceived loss of humanity. To reflect that in the Willpower DSP rules I am proposing, I would suggest that persons with extensive cybernetic implants be subject to Willpower penalties when making rolls to resist the Dark Side. These penalties would vary based on whether the implant was elective or medically necessary in nature, but would primarily be based on whether the implant is a simple replacement or an enhancement (my theory here is that the character's superhero complex would make them more prone to acting without thinking the matter through properly, and get them in trouble). |
I could get behind this. However the only problem I can see coming with this, is if you get a character with a high enough willpower score, they negate the penalty, and can possibly side step dark side points just because of a skill roll. |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 7:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Raven Redstar wrote: | | I could get behind this. However the only problem I can see coming with this, is if you get a character with a high enough willpower score, they negate the penalty, and can possibly side step dark side points just because of a skill roll. |
Well, IMO, that would be a reasonable option available to someone who has spent the time and CPs necessary to build their Willpower to such a high level. They wouldn't be negating the penalty so much as they would be offsetting it by having improved their Willpower skill enough to compensate.
Perhaps there could even be penalty offsets for having a cybenetic implant that looks human. After all, if it looks the same and feels the same, it might be easier for the character to mentally disregard the reality that his replacement limb is cybernetic.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 8:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | In game terms, this would mean that, if the character found himself in a stressful situation, such as seeing a friend or loved one get murdered, or falling victim to a Sith's successful use of Dun Moch, the character would be forced to make a Willpower roll to maintain control of his emotions. If he fails, he is subject to the following mandatory requirements: He must take some sort of Dark Side inspired action, such as trying to kill his opponent. He must automatically spend a FP on the attack, along with the attendant bonuses, and he gains an automatic DSP. Similar rules could also be worked out for characters acting out of fear (i.e. running away and abandoning friends to near certain death), as opposed to anger or aggression.
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I am not sure if i would turn it into some 'mandatory' requirement, as other than for someone under affect mind/control mind, there is no other thing in SW that 'controls' the character in that manner. BUT i would have it, that actions taken WHILE they are in a "loss of emotional control" moment, do bring dark side reprocussions.
| Quote: | By making Willpower they key to resisting the power of the Dark Side, it becomes a definite skill of interest for any Force user who wants to keep his character on the Light Side. In addition, it works the idea of the Dark Side being "quicker, easier (and) more seductive" into the rules. After all, if a Jedi has to split his CPs between Lightsaber, Control, Sense, Alter and Willpower, he progresses more slowly than a Sith Lord who could care less about the Dark Side penalties of failing a Willpower roll.
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Plus it shows to others that, being in control of one's self is not just a matter of choice, but strong will.
| Quote: | EDIT: In fact, I would even be willing to impose a Willpower bonus / penalty on Jedi characters equal to the difference between the Jedi's highest Force skill value and his Willpower skill level, emphasizing the importance of a Jedi learning to control themselves just as much as they learn to use the Force.
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IF i was to see that, i would average it between Willpower and Control. I can't see Sense or Alter affecting it.
| Quote: | In addition, I believe that several "border line" powers on the Force Powers list should be modified so that they exist in a moral "gray area". In game terms, this would mean that certain powers that gain the user a Mandatory DSP for use should be altered so that a Jedi may use them and not receive a DSP, if they pass a Willpower check to control the negative emotions that are the fuel for the Dark Side. A general list would include:
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Prob i see there, is if you remove the Fuel (neg emotions) how are you going to activate the power? I MIGHT see it as a big bump up for using the skill if you remove the dark side part... much like there is a difference in difficulty to 'call on the dark side' if you are not going to use it for harm/Woe.
| Quote: | Injure/Kill and TK/Kill - These powers would now include the option to Stun, but only if the Jedi passes a Willpower check to mitigate the damage (This would explain Luke being able to Force Choke the Gamorrean guards at Jabba's palace in ROTJ).
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Some of us thought that was more Affect mind than Injure kill.. Either that or it explained why he had a DSP (or was it 2) by the source book...
| Quote: | | Force Wind, Doppelganger, Memory Wipe and Drain Energy |
These 4, especialy the latter 2 i just can't see even being initiated without using the darkside... Much like i could never see these rules applying to someone using force scream or rage...
To me there just HAS to be some powers that are flat out dark side in origin/initiation.
| Quote: | | I could get behind this. However the only problem I can see coming with this, is if you get a character with a high enough willpower score, they negate the penalty, and can possibly side step dark side points just because of a skill roll. |
Agreed. As is the issue i see with turning a lot of the "earn a dsp for doing X" for many of these things.
IF i was to get behind this (for dsps/force powers lets say), i would go
TK injure kill.
When using this force power, normally a Jedi gains a dark side point cause of using the force to cause direct harm. BUT if a jedi succeeds on a willpower roll (difficulty of difficult) then he can use TK I/K to cause incapacitation damage only, at 1 level of difficulty higher than normal without issues of gaining a DSP. Failing the Willpower roll means he can't even use the power (this time), while flubbing it (all 1s on the dice) means his will broke and he flat out lashes out with TK I/K potentially earning MORE than the immediate DSP.
Force lightning.
When using this power normally a Jedi Gains a DSP as to activate it they have to give into their baser emotions. A Jedi who succeeds on a Moderate Willpower roll can use higher emotions to control it, and activate the power, but still has to be wary of causing potentially leathal damage. IF his willpower roll is Difficult or higher, he can control it sufficiently to stop at Incapacitated.
Cybernetic penalties.
Having certain cybernetics can impact a persons humanity in that they feel less and less human, which for many means they would feel less issues giving into their baser emotions. Ergo implants even necessary life saving ones give penalties to the willpower roll.
LIFESAVING
Heart - +2 to the target number
Lungs - +2/+3 if half/both
Liver - +1
Kidneys - +2 for one, +4 for both
Limbs - 0 mod for hand/feet, +2 if more than one has been replaced. +2 for full limb, +5 for 2 limbs, +8 for 3 limbs, +12 for all 4.
NON LIFE SAVING (meaning they elected to have them done
Heart - +10
Lungs - +5/+8
Liver - +5
Kidneys - +5/+8
Extremeties - +5 per
Limb - +10 arm/+12 leg.
Str enhancing cybernetics (limb or full body) - minus to willpower equal to Str rating once enhanced (eg going from 3d str to 4d via cybernetics gives 4d of penalty to willpower)
Dex enhancing Cyberbetics - Minus to willpower equal to difference between augumented Dex and unenhanced dex.
Per enhancing Cybernetics - Minus equal to double Difference between augumented and unenhanced Per.
Know enhancing. Penalty as per Dex.
Memory module (Johnny mnemonic style!) - minus 1d+2 to willpower score
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 10:22 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | I am not sure if i would turn it into some 'mandatory' requirement, as other than for someone under affect mind/control mind, there is no other thing in SW that 'controls' the character in that manner. BUT i would have it, that actions taken WHILE they are in a "loss of emotional control" moment, do bring dark side repercussions. |
I can live with that. I think I proposed a variant of this idea in the Lightsaber Form vs. Form thread for Form VII Vaapad, whereby a Jedi has to make a Willpower roll every round of combat. If he fails the roll, he gives in to his darker impulses and the joy of the fight. The character who has lost control can do nothing but fight, and do his utmost to slay his opponent. He still gets a penalized Willpower check to reign himself in, but if he kills his opponent before he controls himself, he gets a DSP.
A similar idea would work here, where a character who has lost control gets regular checks (with a penalty) to bring himself back under control, and that any Dark Side oriented actions that occur during that loss of control would earn DSPs.
| Quote: | | IF i was to see that, i would average it between Willpower and Control. I can't see Sense or Alter affecting it. |
My theory here is that the more powerful a Jedi is, the greater the temptation is to take the easy path and use that power. In game terms, the greater his dice in his Force skills, the greater the temptation to use that power, even when it isn't necessary. As such, his highest Force dice level would be the equal of the greatest source of temptation for him.
| Quote: | | Prob i see there, is if you remove the Fuel (neg emotions) how are you going to activate the power? I MIGHT see it as a big bump up for using the skill if you remove the dark side part... much like there is a difference in difficulty to 'call on the dark side' if you are not going to use it for harm/Woe. |
I think my biggest argument with some of these powers being strictly Dark Side powers is that WEG is the source of the stat write-up. These powers are seen perhaps once or twice throughout the canon, and WEG seems to have made a blanket ruling that just because the one time the power was used, it was used by a Dark Jedi, so therefore the power must be a Dark Side Power. This completely ignores the possibility that this could merely be a useful power that all the Jedi know, and we just happened to see a Dark Jedi using it that one time. I have seen several similar WEG leaps of logic that ultimately turned out to be bellyflops once the references and the rules are examined.
In addition, as the EU expands, additional powers are coming out that undercut the Dark Side nature of some of these official powers. Doppelganger seems like it should be a subset of the Illusion power described as one of the Fallanassi abilities in Cracken's Threat Dossier, in that you project a perfectly realistic duplicate of yourself. Illusion takes that ability and expands it to an illusion of anything you are familiar with, without the DSP.
If it were up to me, I would probably remove the mandatory DSP on the powers as listed. However, the "emotional fuel" argument is a valid one, and needs to be considered, and this compromise with Willpower was the best that I could come up with.
On a side note, the EU has also established that the Jedi are not above skirting the edges of the Dark Side to fuel their abilities. Mace Windu's Vaapad lightsaber form is a prime example.
| Quote: | | Some of us thought that was more Affect mind than Injure kill.. Either that or it explained why he had a DSP (or was it 2) by the source book... |
It's a thought, but I prefer my version
| Quote: | | Quote: | | Force Wind, Doppelganger, Memory Wipe and Drain Energy |
These 4, especialy the latter 2 i just can't see even being initiated without using the darkside... Much like i could never see these rules applying to someone using force scream or rage...
To me there just HAS to be some powers that are flat out dark side in origin/initiation. |
I agree, but to me, those are the horrific-grade powers, like Create Force Storms and Drain Life Essence. With Memory Wipe, you can basically perform the same trick with Affect Mind, so its not hard for me to make the leap from that to erasing whole sections of memory instead of just altering them. With Drain Energy, well, if a Jedi can absorb a blaster bolt with his bare hand, why shouldn't he be able to drain the energy out of its power pack as well? Force Wind seems to be little more than an extension of TK, and Doppelganger seems little more than an elaborate illusion either mental or reality manipulation (as in the case of the Fallanassi). If WEG had clarified the emotional fuel idea a little more clearly, I could understand, but even if they had, I would argue that they were reaching when they wrote these up.
EDIT: Also, it seems a little off to me that you would be OK with Willpower based Force Lightning not giving a DSP, but that you have an issue with these others, which have many more possible uses, and aren't nearly as sinister.
| Quote: | | IF i was to get behind this (for dsps/force powers lets say), i would go |
I like all of your ideas here. My only disagreement is in the severity of penalties inflicted for cybernetic parts, but I think that ultimately stems from our philosophical disagreement over the degree to which cybernetics affect a person's humanity.
P.S. How do you think realistic appearing cybernetic parts would affect the penalties? If it is all purely psychological, then it stands to reason that a part that looks and feels real would have a lower psychological effect than an obviously cybernetic part/
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 1:38 am Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: |
I can live with that. I think I proposed a variant of this idea in the Lightsaber Form vs. Form thread for Form VII Vaapad, whereby a Jedi has to make a Willpower roll every round of combat. If he fails the roll, he gives in to his darker impulses and the joy of the fight. The character who has lost control can do nothing but fight, and do his utmost to slay his opponent. He still gets a penalized Willpower check to reign himself in, but if he kills his opponent before he controls himself, he gets a DSP.
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I can agree with dat.
| crmcneill wrote: | A similar idea would work here, where a character who has lost control gets regular checks (with a penalty) to bring himself back under control, and that any Dark Side oriented actions that occur during that loss of control would earn DSPs.
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I would actually say he should have a min time before he can try and regain himself.. say based on how badly he failed the willpower roll..
Say 0-3, instant check at end of round
4-6, end of next round
7-9, end of 2 rounds
10-12 end of 4th round and so on
| crmcneill wrote: | My theory here is that the more powerful a Jedi is, the greater the temptation is to take the easy path and use that power. In game terms, the greater his dice in his Force skills, the greater the temptation to use that power, even when it isn't necessary. As such, his highest Force dice level would be the equal of the greatest source of temptation for him.
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If he is using his highest skill roll in place of willpower (which is what you suggested above) how is that equaling the greatest source of temptation? Maybe i am just not understanding you here..
| crmcneill wrote: | I think my biggest argument with some of these powers being strictly Dark Side powers is that WEG is the source of the stat write-up. These powers are seen perhaps once or twice throughout the canon, and WEG seems to have made a blanket ruling that just because the one time the power was used, it was used by a Dark Jedi, so therefore the power must be a Dark Side Power. This completely ignores the possibility that this could merely be a useful power that all the Jedi know, and we just happened to see a Dark Jedi using it that one time. I have seen several similar WEG leaps of logic that ultimately turned out to be bellyflops once the references and the rules are examined.
In addition, as the EU expands, additional powers are coming out that undercut the Dark Side nature of some of these official powers |
IMO some of that is fans whining (and writers listening to said whining) to get something cool that should normally be baddie only allowed for the heroes, OR the writers themselves feeling that way.. See how R.A salvatore took a normally supposedly evil as can be race (DROW ELVES) and made one of the most 'goody too shoes characters out there..
Just cause they see it that way, does not make them any more right than the makers of the game are wrong..
| crmcneill wrote: | On a side note, the EU has also established that the Jedi are not above skirting the edges of the Dark Side to fuel their abilities. Mace Windu's Vaapad lightsaber form is a prime example.
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And that to me is part of the issue. Canon (the novelization of movies along with the movies themselves, show/say that once started down the dark path, forever will it dominate you. So how can we then get the EU overriding it, by saying you can skirt it/use it with pure emotions etc and NOT suffer... THAT is where i get in a Knot over things..
| crmcneill wrote: | | I agree, but to me, those are the horrific-grade powers, like Create Force Storms and Drain Life Essence. With Memory Wipe, you can basically perform the same trick with Affect Mind, so its not hard for me to make the leap from that to erasing whole sections of memory instead of just altering them |
Sorry, but i can't agree. Its like saying there is no difference in me using Format C:*.* to 'wipe your hard drive or using 'delete' and empty out the in box... Memory whipe is like the ultimate form of mind rape. See Kyp and jason. BOTH are the the ONLY two to have used this, and both times he seemed to have done so, was wrong as hell.
| crmcneill wrote: | EDIT: Also, it seems a little off to me that you would be OK with Willpower based Force Lightning not giving a DSP, but that you have an issue with these others, which have many more possible uses, and aren't nearly as sinister.
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Cause i am trying to work with what you are arguing.. i can certainly see a NON damaging variant of force lightning (Charge batteries)... but if you read what i wrote, you can also majorly screw up with FL and that willpower..
| crmcneill wrote: | | P.S. How do you think realistic appearing cybernetic parts would affect the penalties? If it is all purely psychological, then it stands to reason that a part that looks and feels real would have a lower psychological effect than an obviously cybernetic part/ |
Not sure..[/quote]
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:30 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | I would actually say he should have a min time before he can try and regain himself.. say based on how badly he failed the willpower roll..
Say 0-3, instant check at end of round
4-6, end of next round
7-9, end of 2 rounds
10-12 end of 4th round and so on |
That's good. An alternative idea would be a sliding scale, where his Willpower difficulty to regain control is directly related to how badly he failed the initial roll, and that that difficulty level would drop a level for every subsequent round. An important caveat here would be that, because the character is out of control, he can't spend CPs or FPs on his Willpower rolls to regain control. This is a fight he has to win on his own.
| Quote: | | If he is using his highest skill roll in place of willpower (which is what you suggested above) how is that equaling the greatest source of temptation? Maybe i am just not understanding you here... |
Or I just didn't explain it right. What I'm saying is that his highest Force Skill level is the level used to determine the level of temptation he is facing, while his Willpower roll is what he is using to resist that temptation (and that unassisted by any Force powers).
The idea is that the Force user calculates the difference between his Willpower and his highest value Force skill, and applies that difference as either a bonus or a penalty to his Willpower roll.
For example, if a character had Control 9D, Sense 8D and Alter 8D, with a Willpower of 8D, he would suffer a -1D penalty to his Willpower to maintain control when using "Gray Area" Force powers. By the same token, if the Jedi had a Willpower of 10D, he would receive a +1D bonus to Willpower to resist.
Using this rule, it would greatly behoove any player who didn't want his Jedi PC to become an NPC Dark Jedi in short order to keep his Willpower skill either at or above the level of his Force skills.
| crmcneill wrote: | IMO some of that is fans whining (and writers listening to said whining) to get something cool that should normally be baddie only allowed for the heroes, OR the writers themselves feeling that way.. See how R.A salvatore took a normally supposedly evil as can be race (DROW ELVES) and made one of the most 'goody too shoes characters out there..
Just cause they see it that way, does not make them any more right than the makers of the game are wrong.. |
Now, now. I admit that Drizzt is almost too good and noble, considering his roots, but at the same time, I hadn't really imagined how evil all the other drow could be until I read Salvatore's Dark Elf trilogy.
That being said, I have no problem with certain Force abilities being limited to Dark Side characters only, but in the interests of balance, these should be the truly nasty abilities that are very obviously built on negative emotions. I have difficulty accepting that a power is dark just by WEG says it is, based on a one-shot appearance in a Kevin Anderson novel (and if that isn't a recipe for roleplaying disaster, I don't know what is).
| Quote: | | And that to me is part of the issue. Canon (the novelization of movies along with the movies themselves, show/say that once started down the dark path, forever will it dominate you. So how can we then get the EU overriding it, by saying you can skirt it/use it with pure emotions etc and NOT suffer... THAT is where i get in a Knot over things.. |
And that's why I want to introduce the Willpower aspect, so that those powers and skills that skirt the edge of the Dark Side are no longer Jedi safe zones just because WEG said that you can get a DSP for doing "this", but not "this".
| Quote: | | Sorry, but i can't agree. Its like saying there is no difference in me using Format C:*.* to 'wipe your hard drive or using 'delete' and empty out the in box... Memory whipe is like the ultimate form of mind rape. See Kyp and jason. BOTH are the the ONLY two to have used this, and both times he seemed to have done so, was wrong as hell. |
OK, fair enough. I suppose I was looking at it from a perspective of a Force power that worked like an MIB neuralyzer, but I suppose Affect Mind would do that just as well.
| Quote: | | Cause i am trying to work with what you are arguing.. i can certainly see a NON damaging variant of force lightning (Charge batteries)... but if you read what i wrote, you can also majorly screw up with FL and that willpower.. |
Actually, after going back and reading your suggestions for TK Kill and Force Lightning, I think you may have actually gone too far. Under the rules for Projected Fighting, it says that if you inflict any damage above Stun, then you receive an automatic DSP. I think a similar rule should be applied here, in that successful use of Willpower to restrain the level of damage inflicted should be limited to Stun only, instead of going up to Incapacitated (although it might be useful to allow Force Lightning to have full effect on mechanicals and inanimate objects).
| Quote: | | crmcneill wrote: | | P.S. How do you think realistic appearing cybernetic parts would affect the penalties? If it is all purely psychological, then it stands to reason that a part that looks and feels real would have a lower psychological effect than an obviously cybernetic part/ |
Not sure.. |
Well, I definitely think that realistic cybernetics should have some sort of reduction in the psychological effect.
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 5:11 am Post subject: |
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All quotes from crmcneill
| Quote: | because the character is out of control, he can't spend CPs or FPs on his Willpower rolls to regain control. This is a fight he has to win on his own.
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Nice.... I like that reigning in of them. Though would they benefit from if they were already on a FP?
| Quote: | Or I just didn't explain it right. What I'm saying is that his highest Force Skill level is the level used to determine the level of temptation he is facing, while his Willpower roll is what he is using to resist that temptation (and that unassisted by any Force powers).
The idea is that the Force user calculates the difference between his Willpower and his highest value Force skill, and applies that difference as either a bonus or a penalty to his Willpower roll. |
Now i understand.. Thanks for the clarification.
| Quote: | | OK, fair enough. I suppose I was looking at it from a perspective of a Force power that worked like an MIB neuralyzer, but I suppose Affect Mind would do that just as well. |
As we saw in MIB2, a neuralizer's wiping of your memory can be reversed. From the way the mind wipe force power is shown/read to be, it actually damages/destroys the part of the brain where that info is, so its gone for good.
| Quote: | | Actually, after going back and reading your suggestions for TK Kill and Force Lightning, I think you may have actually gone too far. Under the rules for Projected Fighting, it says that if you inflict any damage above Stun, then you receive an automatic DSP. I think a similar rule should be applied here, in that successful use of Willpower to restrain the level of damage inflicted should be limited to Stun only, instead of going up to Incapacitated (although it might be useful to allow Force Lightning to have full effect on mechanicals and inanimate objects). |
I might have.. I will change it to stun only, with a flub will power roll making all damage go through, doubling the DSP acquisition.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:33 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Nice.... I like that reigning in of them. Though would they benefit from if they were already on a FP? |
Perhaps, the FP bonus only lasts one round, which covers the initial surge of emotion, and then it wears off. During that emotional blast, the character has no interest in stopping, so he doesn't get a Willpower roll that round. Only in the subsequent rounds, as the anger or fear starts to level off does his mind catch up. At that point he can start to try to control himself, just without FPs or CPs.
| Quote: | | I might have.. I will change it to stun only, with a flub will power roll making all damage go through, doubling the DSP acquisition. |
Instead of doubling it, you could say that the Jedi picks up two DSP for failing; one for the general loss of control, and one for using Force Lightning to inflict damage.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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jmanski
Arbiter-General (Moderator)
Joined: 06 Mar 2005
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Location: Kansas
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| Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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I don't play Jedi, but if I did and I made the concious choice to avoid DSPs and some roll of the dice made my character decide to murder someone that I didn't want to.... I think I'd be more than a little pissed.
I understand what you are going for, but is a dice roll really called for or is it just good roleplaying you are looking for?
It is a struggle to stay a good-boy as a Jedi. But isn't that one of the reasons to roleplay that kind of thing? Maybe it's the players? I know almost everyone wants to be a Jedi and swing lightsabers and jump a hundred feet into the air.... but maybe almost everyone isn't cut out to be a Jedi?
I hate to make mechanics that force players to do something, especially if they don't want to do it. I can see it now:
PC: I disable the badguy.
GM: he killed your master.
PC: you're right.... I take his lightsaber.
GM: he killed your master violently.
PC: ok, I knock him out and tie his hands together.
GM: (sigh) (rolls dice) you lose control and slaughter the bad guy.
PC: What?!?
That's what I want to avoid.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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| jmanski wrote: | I don't play Jedi, but if I did and I made the concious choice to avoid DSPs and some roll of the dice made my character decide to murder someone that I didn't want to.... I think I'd be more than a little pissed.
I understand what you are going for, but is a dice roll really called for or is it just good roleplaying you are looking for?
It is a struggle to stay a good-boy as a Jedi. But isn't that one of the reasons to roleplay that kind of thing? Maybe it's the players? I know almost everyone wants to be a Jedi and swing lightsabers and jump a hundred feet into the air.... but maybe almost everyone isn't cut out to be a Jedi?
I hate to make mechanics that force players to do something, especially if they don't want to do it. I can see it now:
PC: I disable the badguy.
GM: he killed your master.
PC: you're right.... I take his lightsaber.
GM: he killed your master violently.
PC: ok, I knock him out and tie his hands together.
GM: (sigh) (rolls dice) you lose control and slaughter the bad guy.
PC: What?!?
That's what I want to avoid. |
Ok, I think your example oversimplifies things a bit. The key issue here is control. Regardless of whether or not the player is trying to keep the PC in-character, the player is still in control, and now matter hard he may try, the player is not the character. He does not experience the same emotional stimuli or intellectual perspective, and even if the situation would cause the character to "lose control", that loss of control is still under the control of the player.
In such a situation, the player is placed in a quandary, between good role-playing and character preservation. Good role-playing is a very nice ideal, but I think we are all willing to admit that, if the situation were entirely under our control, we would shade things just a little bit so that our character would get "close" to a DSP, without actually earning one. Whether we admit it or not, we get emotionally attached to our characters, and the last thing we want to see is our characters being taken away and turned into evil NPCs, and that emotional attachment colors all of our choices when it comes to role-playing in a crisis situation.
IMO, a rule like this would actually make role-playing easier, because it takes that quandary and replaces it with a rule. Now, rather than the player having to walk a balance between realism and character preservation, the decision is made for him, and he must role-play the results, either successful self-control or loss of control and dealing with the consequences. Once everything is said and done, the player may not like the result, but at least it was arrived at honestly by a roll of the dice, not as the result of a mental calculation of "OK, what action can I take that will earn CPs for staying in character but not be quite enough to get a DSP?" If you are honest with yourself, you have had that thought (or some variation of the same theme) at least once during your role-playing career.
Ultimately, I think that it is unrealistic to expect a player to provide "good role-playing" in a situation where the character loses control. In effect, you are asking for a controlled loss of control, and asking a player to role-play a contradiction in terms is never a good idea. Better to provide him with a result of that loss of control and see what he does with it.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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