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CRMcNeill
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 Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 7:27 pm Post subject: Force Lightning vs. Telekinetic Kill |
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Something about these two powers has been bugging me for a while. The canon material presents Force Lightning as somehow superior to TK Kill, mostly by saying that Vader is unable to project Force Lightning because of his cybernetic limbs, so he is forced to resort to TK Kill as an alternate of sorts.
However, looking at the RAW, this doesn't seem the case. From a straight numbers perspective, TK Kill rolls the attacker's full Alter skill against the defender's Perception to determine damage, while Force Lightning is limited to half of the Alter skill (rounded down). However, both Sidious and Dooku make regular use of Force Lightning, with little or no evidence of TK Kill. I'm looking for possible explanations, or for alternate versions of TK Kill and/or Force Lightning that balance out the numbers disparity somewhat.
On a somewhat related topic, can anyone think of a reason why TK Kill rolls against the target's Perception, not their Strength? Perception doesn't make sense to me if one is trying to resist a physical attack like TK Kill.
Also, when reading the description for TK Kill, it seemed more than possible that the same techniques could be used less severely to merely Stun an opponent. Does anyone see a problem with converting TK Kill into TK Kill/Stun, with the DSP waived if the character only uses the power to stun his opponent?
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garhkal
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garhkal
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| Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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As to the DSP for use.. it is cause even if you are using it to only stun, you are still pushing the force directly for attack. Plus from my reading, i can't see a "gentile way" of using it, that is NOT channeling your hatred/agression, which as yoda says are all of the dark side.
It's the same reasoning i can't see how the "electrical judgement' force power is considered official..
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | As to the DSP for use.. it is cause even if you are using it to only stun, you are still pushing the force directly for attack. Plus from my reading, i can't see a "gentile way" of using it, that is NOT channeling your hatred/agression, which as yoda says are all of the dark side. |
Well, technically speaking, you could use TK to temporarily pinch off the arteries delivering blood flow to the head and brain, which would cause the target to pass out. Obviously, this would be fatal if the grip was maintained, but if you held it just long enough to knock them out, leaving them otherwise unharmed, that wouldn't really be a violation of Jedi ethics. This could also be a potential explanation for Luke Force Choking the two Gamorreans in ROTJ; he used just enough to put them out, but not enough to kill them.
| Quote: | | It's the same reasoning i can't see how the "electrical judgement' force power is considered official.. |
I would tend to agree. Sometimes I wonder who is in charge of quality control for EU material at Lucasfilm (I picture an angry monkey with a rubber stamp). Unfortunately, somebody ran with it and let Jacen use it against Yuuzhan Vong warriors in Destiny's Way, so its an official power. However, I have an idea for this.
My current working theory takes a lot of the decision making on DSP related actions out of the character's hands and makes it a Willpower issue. Specifically, if the character fails a Willpower roll to control their emotions in a very stressful situation, the character snaps and either goes into a killing frenzy or a state of absolute panic, usually with fatal consequences. In this situation, the character automatically burns a FP and gains a DSP. I haven't gotten too far beyond the initial planning stages, obviously.
Coincidentally, there are several Force Powers that have mandatory DSPs for use. Specific examples include powers like Doppelganger, Electronic Manipulation, Force Wind and Memory Wipe (as well as Injure/Kill and TK Kill for those who feel that such powers could be used to inflict Stun damage as well). Those mandatory DSPs have been the subject of much screaming and yelling in the SW-RPG community over the years, to the point where the Eu has begun to feature Light Side variants of some of these powers in recent years (Electric Judgement is a key example).
My theory is, rather than make all new Force Powers, make a third list of Dark Side Risk powers. Once I can get the Involuntary DSP rule I described above running the way I like it, we base the DSP in these powers on a Willpower roll. In gameplay, these would be powers that can be used for positive effect, but have obvious temptation aspects. The character could use the power, but would only receive the DSP if they failed the Willpower roll and succumbed to the Dark Side.
For example, using this idea, Force Lightning and Electric Judgment would be the same power, and a Jedi could use it for non-lethal effect, but its use would require a Willpower roll to resist the attendant negative emotions. If he failed the roll, he fails to keep the emotions at bay and gains a DSP. The same thing would apply to powers like Doppelganger and Electronic Manipulation, in that the effect would be the same, only the emotional "fuel" would be different, even though their would be attendant risks and temptations.
By the same token, Injure/Kill and TK Kill could be modified to Injure/Kill/Stun and TK Attack, but the Jedi would only be able to inflict Stun damage by making a successful Willpower roll. If he fails, his target either dies or is badly hurt, and the Jedi gets a DSP.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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Another example would be Morichro and Place Another in Hibernation Trance. Instead of two powers, why not just expand the rules for Place Another in Hibernation Trance to include the ability to place an unwilling subject in a trance (at a higher Difficulty level, of course).
To coincide with my theory on Willpower, I would also suggest that some of the more extreme Dark Side powers, like Create Force Storms and Drain Life Essence, should be restricted powers, available solely to characters who have fallen to the Dark Side. The dividing line (IMO) between restricted and non-restricted Dark Side abilities should be based solely on whether or not the power is one that could be used instinctively, or one that would require study and effort to master.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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My reasoning for FL being purely a DS power is that the description for it states you are fueling the energy with your hate. SO i cannot see how a "light side' version could even be possibile.. what are you fueling it with? Your love... 
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:08 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | My reasoning for FL being purely a DS power is that the description for it states you are fueling the energy with your hate. SO i cannot see how a "light side' version could even be possibile.. what are you fueling it with? Your love... |
Very true. But if they are going to make Electric Judgment a power, why not just fold it into an existing power, along with rules for making the very use of Electric Judgment a risk for a potential DSP?
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 10:36 pm Post subject: |
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That brings up an interesting question. What sorts of emotions would qualify as strong, and yet not dark?
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 1:50 am Post subject: |
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Going by the jedi council, NONE...
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 1:55 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Going by the jedi council, NONE... |
Well, if the Jedi council said it, then it must be true...
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Random Numbers
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| Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 8:24 am Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | Going by the jedi council, NONE... |
Well, if the Jedi council said it, then it must be true... |
I guess it's canon ;D
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garhkal
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| Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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Maybe they are all studying under the teachings of Spock and sulak!
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 9:35 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Maybe they are all studying under the teachings of Spock and sulak! |
What was our topic here again?
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garhkal
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| Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 1:25 am Post subject: |
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What's the price of tea in china i think 
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 1:39 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | What's the price of tea in china i think |
Well, since we seem to have answered my previous question over on the Willpower and DSPs thread by folding Electric Judgment into Force Lightning and adding a Willpower roll, the correct answer must be, "Whatever Communist Party Headquarters in Beijing tells us to charge this year, not counting whatever the local officials decide to skim off the top."
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