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Raven Redstar
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 Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 2:48 pm Post subject: Cybernetics: A different approach. |
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In the Cybernetics topic, I noticed there was a lot of discussion as how cybernetics would affect a Jedi character, and then the topic of droids came up, and I pondered.
The old cyber-point system was in some ways was too lax on characters that didn't care whether or not they earned additional dark side points. So I came up with the idea: What if, the difficulty to use force skills was increased based on the number of cyber points a character had accrued. Since every cybernetic enhancement and prosthetic comes with a cyber-point value already, half of the work is done for us already.
1 cyber-point = -1 to all Control, Sense, and Alter rolls.
I'm also estimating the total cybernetic rebuild at approximately at 12 cyber-points, making a total cyborg at -12 to all force rolls.
In addition, I suggest that the cyber-point value of the various attribute buff enhancement packages be increased from 2 to 4.
For those of us who have or have had the power gamer types that are looking for the quick and easy path to increased attributes, grant them an extra Dark Side point each time they do something evil, self serving, or whatever. Shortly thereafter, I'm sure we'll have some nice twinked evil force using NPCs to throw at our party from time to time.
As for Droids I would count as having a cyber-point value of 15, so a droid force user (if you would allow them) would be automatically rolling all force skills at a -15 penalty. Now, this doesn't completely bar droids from becoming Jedi or whatever else, however it would take much longer for them to get to the operating level of an organic Jedi. The only exception for their penalty, would be the Shard droid body healing techniques, which I wouldn't penalize.
As for Shard characters, I would count them in their droid bodies as having cyber-point value of 10 or 12.
I have already foreseen that some here may call my new optional rule "too lax", I propose for those who find the optional rule too easy on players, double the penalty. 1 cyber-point = -2 from all force skill checks.
This optional rule, provides penalties for players who want to go under the knife for nice new parts, but also reflects how incredibly potent characters who have mostly full body prosthesis and still own everyone they come across (i.e. Darth Vader). This also could be used to explain how Luke managed to survive his encounters with Vader, when vastly out powered by both skill and force power. |
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Rerun941
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Joined: 27 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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I kinda like this idea. The numbers might not be exactly perfect, and could use some playtesting, but the thinking and direction is sound.
Since +5 is basically "increase the difficulty by one level" and +10 is "increase the difficulty by two levels" You've got some very good benchmarks there, Raven.
If you really want to be harsh, you could reduce the bonus for CP and FP expenditure as well. i.e. with 5 cyber points you only get +2 for every CP spent and FPs only grant a 50% increase. with 10 cyber points, you only get +1 for every CP spent and FPs only grant a 25% increase.
Again, playtesting will help tweak those numbers.
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ZzaphodD
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Joined: 28 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 6:45 pm Post subject: Re: Cybernetics: A different approach. |
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| Raven Redstar wrote: | In the Cybernetics topic, I noticed there was a lot of discussion as how cybernetics would affect a Jedi character, and then the topic of droids came up, and I pondered.
The old cyber-point system was in some ways was too lax on characters that didn't care whether or not they earned additional dark side points. So I came up with the idea: What if, the difficulty to use force skills was increased based on the number of cyber points a character had accrued. Since every cybernetic enhancement and prosthetic comes with a cyber-point value already, half of the work is done for us already.
1 cyber-point = -1 to all Control, Sense, and Alter rolls.
I'm also estimating the total cybernetic rebuild at approximately at 12 cyber-points, making a total cyborg at -12 to all force rolls.
In addition, I suggest that the cyber-point value of the various attribute buff enhancement packages be increased from 2 to 4.
For those of us who have or have had the power gamer types that are looking for the quick and easy path to increased attributes, grant them an extra Dark Side point each time they do something evil, self serving, or whatever. Shortly thereafter, I'm sure we'll have some nice twinked evil force using NPCs to throw at our party from time to time.
As for Droids I would count as having a cyber-point value of 15, so a droid force user (if you would allow them) would be automatically rolling all force skills at a -15 penalty. Now, this doesn't completely bar droids from becoming Jedi or whatever else, however it would take much longer for them to get to the operating level of an organic Jedi. The only exception for their penalty, would be the Shard droid body healing techniques, which I wouldn't penalize.
As for Shard characters, I would count them in their droid bodies as having cyber-point value of 10 or 12.
I have already foreseen that some here may call my new optional rule "too lax", I propose for those who find the optional rule too easy on players, double the penalty. 1 cyber-point = -2 from all force skill checks.
This optional rule, provides penalties for players who want to go under the knife for nice new parts, but also reflects how incredibly potent characters who have mostly full body prosthesis and still own everyone they come across (i.e. Darth Vader). This also could be used to explain how Luke managed to survive his encounters with Vader, when vastly out powered by both skill and force power. |
Im doing this a step furhter
Force Skills.
1 Cyber Point -1D to Force Skills. If this is an 'replacement' without augmentations (For example Lukes hand) this penalty may be bought of at the cost of a force point. This represent the Jedi learning to live with his mechanical replacement and adjusting his access to the force. A dark side Jedi does not suffer from this penalty.
Force Points.
A being with Cyber Points that try to use a force point must roll an opposed Perception test vs. a number of dice equal to the beings number of Cyber Points. Example. a being with three Cyber Poins must roll an opposed Perceptions test vs 3D and win to use his Force Point. Cyber Points 'bought off' with Force Points above do not affect the access to Force Points and no test is needed.
Dark Side Points.
For each two Cyber Points a character reciewes 1 DSP. Bought off Cyber Points do not generate DSPs. With my Will of the Dark Side rules this will mean that cybered beings (even non force sensitives) will start to behave with less empathy and concern for others.
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Raven Redstar wrote: | The old cyber-point system was in some ways was too lax on characters that didn't care whether or not they earned additional dark side points. So I came up with the idea: What if, the difficulty to use force skills was increased based on the number of cyber points a character had accrued. Since every cybernetic enhancement and prosthetic comes with a cyber-point value already, half of the work is done for us already.
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Being that the old way, also penalizes non force users (gain a DSP, with cybernetics you earn 2, as per one book), why would you ignore the potential for them to be affected?
| Raven Redstar wrote: | 1 cyber-point = -1 to all Control, Sense, and Alter rolls.
I'm also estimating the total cybernetic rebuild at approximately at 12 cyber-points, making a total cyborg at -12 to all force rolls.
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That seems too lax.. an average roll from 3d would almost compensate for that total cyborging (3.5x3=10.5). Now i could see it if it was say 1cp = -3.
| Raven Redstar wrote: | In addition, I suggest that the cyber-point value of the various attribute buff enhancement packages be increased from 2 to 4.
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That i can easily get behind.
| Rerun941 wrote: | If you really want to be harsh, you could reduce the bonus for CP and FP expenditure as well. i.e. with 5 cyber points you only get +2 for every CP spent and FPs only grant a 50% increase. with 10 cyber points, you only get +1 for every CP spent and FPs only grant a 25% increase.
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Kind of like how Shadowrun did essence reductions, which neutered your magic resistance?
| ZzaphodD wrote: | Force Skills.
1 Cyber Point -1D to Force Skills. If this is an 'replacement' without augmentations (For example Lukes hand) this penalty may be bought of at the cost of a force point. This represent the Jedi learning to live with his mechanical replacement and adjusting his access to the force. A dark side Jedi does not suffer from this penalty. |
OUCH.. a little harsher than i would go. But would there be a limit to how many 'buy offs' could be done? Eg if i had left hand, right forarm, 1 eye, vocal cords, left kidney, lung, heart, left hip, right shin and left foot all replaced, not enhanced that would be 10fp i could 'drop' to buy them off..
| ZzaphodD wrote: | Force Points.
A being with Cyber Points that try to use a force point must roll an opposed Perception test vs. a number of dice equal to the beings number of Cyber Points. Example. a being with three Cyber Poins must roll an opposed Perceptions test vs 3D and win to use his Force Point. Cyber Points 'bought off' with Force Points above do not affect the access to Force Points and no test is needed.
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Would this apply to force users and non force users alike?
| ZzaphodD wrote: | Dark Side Points.
For each two Cyber Points a character reciewes 1 DSP. Bought off Cyber Points do not generate DSPs. With my Will of the Dark Side rules this will mean that cybered beings (even non force sensitives) will start to behave with less empathy and concern for others.
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Is this from the get go, or only when they would do something to earn a DSP?
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 8:03 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | ZzaphodD wrote: | Force Skills.
1 Cyber Point -1D to Force Skills. If this is an 'replacement' without augmentations (For example Lukes hand) this penalty may be bought of at the cost of a force point. This represent the Jedi learning to live with his mechanical replacement and adjusting his access to the force. A dark side Jedi does not suffer from this penalty. |
OUCH.. a little harsher than i would go. But would there be a limit to how many 'buy offs' could be done? Eg if i had left hand, right forarm, 1 eye, vocal cords, left kidney, lung, heart, left hip, right shin and left foot all replaced, not enhanced that would be 10fp i could 'drop' to buy them off..
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I went from the fact that by the RAW, if you have 3 CPs you have a 50% chance of not being able to access the force at all each time, no matter how powerful you were.. Also, as you can 'buy off' the penalty for normal replacements this can be countered as long as you dont try to become a enhanced cyber Jedi.
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | Force Points.
A being with Cyber Points that try to use a force point must roll an opposed Perception test vs. a number of dice equal to the beings number of Cyber Points. Example. a being with three Cyber Poins must roll an opposed Perceptions test vs 3D and win to use his Force Point. Cyber Points 'bought off' with Force Points above do not affect the access to Force Points and no test is needed.
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Would this apply to force users and non force users alike?
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Yes, its in place of the 'roll one die over your current CPs' idea.
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | Dark Side Points.
For each two Cyber Points a character reciewes 1 DSP. Bought off Cyber Points do not generate DSPs. With my Will of the Dark Side rules this will mean that cybered beings (even non force sensitives) will start to behave with less empathy and concern for others.
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Is this from the get go, or only when they would do something to earn a DSP? |
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Cyber Points actually 'generates' DSPs from the moment you install them. You wont get more DSPs when you earn one (As in the RAW) but instead you will suffer from the Will of the Dark Side rule.
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Raven Redstar
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| Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 2:51 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | That seems too lax.. an average roll from 3d would almost compensate for that total cyborging (3.5x3=10.5). Now i could see it if it was say 1cp = -3. |
The only reason I figured -1 for 1 was this was in addition to the difficulty. So a character like you said, would have to have an extra 3D just to compensate. For a total cyborg to roll some force powers that require Heroic difficulties, They'd be looking to need to roll a 43 minimum which isn't exactly easy. (31 difficulty; -12 roll = approx difficulty 43)
| Quote: | | Being that the old way, also penalizes non force users (gain a DSP, with cybernetics you earn 2, as per one book), why would you ignore the potential for them to be affected? |
I didn't mention non-force users, since the discussion I was thinking of had to do with cyber penalties for force users. For non force users, I would go with something like a 3 cyber-point for +1 Dark Side Point. So a total body construct would be looking at +4 extra, so even 1 act for them would possibly push them over the edge to losing their characters.
And a character who is foolish enough to do all of the attribute buff cybernetic upgrades (16 points if you do 4 instead of 2.) would be looking at +5 Dark Side Points, so 1 act, and they're almost assuredly lost.
The above would apply to both force and non-force sensitives. |
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Leon The Lion
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| Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 6:15 am Post subject: |
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| Raven Redstar wrote: | 1 cyber-point = -1 to all Control, Sense, and Alter rolls.
I'm also estimating the total cybernetic rebuild at approximately at 12 cyber-points, making a total cyborg at -12 to all force rolls. |
| garhkal wrote: | | That seems too lax.. an average roll from 3d would almost compensate for that total cyborging (3.5x3=10.5). Now i could see it if it was say 1cp = -3. |
An average roll on 3d would almost compensate for the penalty - but leave you with no points to actually beat the initial difficulty.
That being said I'd personally split the difference between your proposals and go 1 cyber-point = -2. Or rather dump the the "big" cyber-points entirely and assign an individual penalty to each item of cyber-tech, based on the degree to which it replaces and interferes with your biology. So a cyber-eye could be -1, while an entire arm, including the shoulder, could be -4. Or something.
| ZzaphodD wrote: | Force Points.
A being with Cyber Points that try to use a force point must roll an opposed Perception test vs. a number of dice equal to the beings number of Cyber Points. Example. a being with three Cyber Poins must roll an opposed Perceptions test vs 3D and win to use his Force Point. Cyber Points 'bought off' with Force Points above do not affect the access to Force Points and no test is needed. |
I'd think that always: more rolls = bad. Sometimes you just can't avoid them to get the effect you want, but in this case I think we could do away with any additional rolling. What I would do, is apply the same penalty a cyborg gets to Force skill rolls to the bonus dice he would gain when using a Force point. So for example, if he had 6d, spending a Force point he would normally double his initial dice, gaining a 6d bonus. But he also has -9 (-3d) in penalties from cyber-tech. So now spending a Force point grants him only a 6d - 3d = 3d bonus, for a total of 9d.
| ZzaphodD wrote: | Dark Side Points.
For each two Cyber Points a character reciewes 1 DSP. Bought off Cyber Points do not generate DSPs. With my Will of the Dark Side rules this will mean that cybered beings (even non force sensitives) will start to behave with less empathy and concern for others. |
It's just me, but any such rule, RAW or house, has no place in my game. No. Just no. Cybernetics do interfere with your Force connection, since they replace living tissue with artificial materials. They do not eat your soul. They do not make you turn evil, or even cold and "machine-like" in personality (unless you mess with your brain, but that's a different story altogether). I feel this is a heavy-handed, clumsy, transparently artificial, and ulitmately neither effective nor necessary, "balancing" mechanism.
I'm sorry for going into rant mode. This issue just grates on me something fierce. I guess at heart I'm a trashumanist, not a cuberpunk 
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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Well, if cybernetics make you gain additional DSPs, hows that not making you evil?
Edit: Severe mental trauma from becoming part machine is also metioned.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | I didn't mention non-force users, since the discussion I was thinking of had to do with cyber penalties for force users. For non force users, I would go with something like a 3 cyber-point for +1 Dark Side Point. So a total body construct would be looking at +4 extra, so even 1 act for them would possibly push them over the edge to losing their characters.
And a character who is foolish enough to do all of the attribute buff cybernetic upgrades (16 points if you do 4 instead of 2.) would be looking at +5 Dark Side Points, so 1 act, and they're almost assuredly lost.
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Interesting. what if they went 'bioware' like in shadow run'
| Quote: | Or rather dump the the "big" cyber-points entirely and assign an individual penalty to each item of cyber-tech, based on the degree to which it replaces and interferes with your biology. So a cyber-eye could be -1, while an entire arm, including the shoulder, could be -4. Or something.
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Kind of like how shadowrun did the 'Essence cost' per item.
| Quote: | I'd think that always: more rolls = bad. Sometimes you just can't avoid them to get the effect you want, but in this case I think we could do away with any additional rolling. What I would do, is apply the same penalty a cyborg gets to Force skill rolls to the bonus dice he would gain when using a Force point. So for example, if he had 6d, spending a Force point he would normally double his initial dice, gaining a 6d bonus. But he also has -9 (-3d) in penalties from cyber-tech. So now spending a Force point grants him only a 6d - 3d = 3d bonus, for a total of 9d.
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I could see that as a limiter for Non force users..
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Leon The Lion
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| Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 2:36 am Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | | Well, if cybernetics make you gain additional DSPs, hows that not making you evil? |
Well, that's my point. It shouldn't.
| ZzaphodD wrote: | | Edit: Severe mental trauma from becoming part machine is also metioned. |
I would adjucate any possible mental trauma on a case-by-case basis, based on the character's personality and the circumstances and reasons he became part machine, instead of making it automatic and identical for everybody. And even if some mental trauma did happen, it would most certainly not always equal becoming evil.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 2:44 am Post subject: |
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| Leon The Lion wrote: | | Well, that's my point. It shouldn't. |
I agree. There is no evidence in the canon of cybernetics making you more evil. However, there is very specific evidence that massive cybernetic replacement does affect a person's connection to the Force. IMO, that should be applied strictly to Force powers and abilities, not CPs and FPs. After all, if droids can have them, there is certainly no reason a character with a lot of cybernetic parts shouldn't be able to, either.
| Quote: | | I would adjucate any possible mental trauma on a case-by-case basis, based on the character's personality and the circumstances and reasons he became part machine, instead of making it automatic and identical for everybody. And even if some mental trauma did happen, it would most certainly not always equal becoming evil. |
Again, I agree. Mental trauma certainly wouldn't be an issue with the augmentative implants suggested in Cracken's Rebel Field Guide; those are the the sorts of cybernetics that are almost entirely elective procedures (of course, one might question a character's mental stability for doing that, but it's ultimately their choice).
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garhkal
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| Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 6:02 am Post subject: |
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But since many do go in the brain perhaps the surgery for doing so DOES give them brain damage.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 6:40 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | But since many do go in the brain perhaps the surgery for doing so DOES give them brain damage. |
Well, the rules for the installation do include rules for the drawback effects if the surgery roll is failed.
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Leon The Lion
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| Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | But since many do go in the brain perhaps the surgery for doing so DOES give them brain damage. |
Well, the rules for the installation do include rules for the drawback effects if the surgery roll is failed. |
Exactly.
I think the entire "cybernetics in SW make you turn evil" thing came about because people latched onto that one line about Vader by Kenobi: "He's more machine now than man, twisted and evil", and for some reason took that to imply it was the machine part that caused the evil part. Now, having only the original trilogy to go on, one could interpret it that way (though I still feel its rather stretched). But the prequels make it clear this is not the case. Yes, being turned into that cyborg could have very well caused him mental problems, but in and of itself it didn't turn him evil. He got that down beforehand.
And even ignoring the movies, I simply loathe the "cybertech eats your soul" idea. Yes, cybernetics may cause someone to be more likely to choose courses of action that will earn him DSP's. But they will not in and of themselves grant him DSP's just for having them, nor increase the number of DSP's gained when he does something that earns him some. At least at my table.
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon The Lion wrote: | | ZzaphodD wrote: | | Well, if cybernetics make you gain additional DSPs, hows that not making you evil? |
Well, that's my point. It shouldn't.
| ZzaphodD wrote: | | Edit: Severe mental trauma from becoming part machine is also metioned. |
I would adjucate any possible mental trauma on a case-by-case basis, based on the character's personality and the circumstances and reasons he became part machine, instead of making it automatic and identical for everybody. And even if some mental trauma did happen, it would most certainly not always equal becoming evil. |
Well, given that SW is Space Opera with a classic Good vs Evil theme (even if fringe characters are somewhat in between by the designers view you can tell that they have a 'good heart') I feel that the notion of cybernetics as something 'evil' and/or desperate fits in quite well.
To each their own i guess.
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