Dark Side Points?

[Lord Ben]

I have a disagreement with a player. He'd using force skills for a lot of simple stuff. Concentrate on this, concentrate on that, magnify senses for no particular reason, etc.

At what point do you enforce the codes of giving out dark side points for using the force for personal gain? Only for taking money? Or is concentrating on fixing your blaster a good enough reason?

ANYTHING can be rationalized away as doing it for other people. "well, if I don't save my life bad things will happen to my friends so I need to concentrate on shooting a stormtrooper in the face".

It's my first time DMing and the player keeps pushing the limit.s

[Grimace]

What time period are you playing in? If it's the prequel area, or earlier, then have other Jedi show up and lecture the guy, ad naseum, on the lazy use of the Force leading to the Dark Side. If it's during the reign of the Empire, then his casual use of the Force will attract the attention of people that want him dead (Vader, The Emperor, Grand Inquisitors, etc). If it's after that, then Luke might get on him, and if he's not of the type to listen to Luke, then start going "strictly by the book" on him, so if there's any thing that's questionable, give warnings about the Dark Side, and if he keeps it up, give him DSPs. Shooting a stormtrooper is one thing. Shooting him in the face is spiteful, something akin of anger, and therefore of the Dark Side. Concentrating to fix his blaster is one thing. Concentrating to win a gambling hand to get more money is greed, which is of the Dark Side. Doing it once, shame on him. Doing is twice, shame on you. Doing it three times, someone needs some Dark Side points.

Hope this helps.

[Kehlin Yew]

Well-put Grimace, i totally agree.
Why was a Jedi shooting someone in the face anyway!? If it was an accident, then he should feel bad, but on purpose, i believe that should be a DSP.

But in the end, the repremands(sp?) are up to the GM, so it's your choice what to do bro.

[Hellcat]

A PC should not have to use the Force in order to repair their weapons. Concentration does grant an extra 4D to accomplish a task, but their looking at doing two tasks in a round so you might as well say their only getting a 3D bonus towards the skill their looking to use if they make a succesfull Control roll since they loose -1D for that skill according to the example given in the second edition, revised and expanded, core book. They should probably also loose -1D for their Control roll for that round because their attempting two actions. It would make it harder for them to actually succeed at using the Concentration Force power.

But at the same time, is repairing a blaster really an evil action? Is taking money an evil action? The later could certainly be viewed as a petty crime, one which could lead to worse crimes that are certainly going to be deserving of Dark Side Points. But the frivalous use of the Force is really something that should not be allowed to occur often. Suggest to him that perhaps it is not the light side that he's turning when using the Force frivolusly so often. Or perhaps you suggest that he needs to make a certain difficulty number and you don't tell him what that number is so that you can decide whether he made it or not. As Kehlin said, your the GM so it's really up to you what you do.
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Wanted Poster

[Akari]

I dont have the power description for Concentration handy, but as far as I remember this works only for actions that can be completed in a single round, because its not listed as a power that can be kept up... I might be wrong about this though.

I personally would never allow a player I don't know and fullly trust to play a force user anyway. This can lead to all sorts of bad things I wouldn't really want in my campaign.

[Hellcat]

Akari's right, I just checked after seeing what he said. In fact at the very end of the description for Concentration it says it's effect only lasts one round and may not be kept up. So if he wants to use Concentration on something that's going to take multiple rounds to complete, then he needs to reroll it each round resulting in his probably having to reroll the skill as well to be able to Concentrate on it. Which might as well mean he doesn't get the job done because he keeps stopping and starting.
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Wanted Poster

[Volar the Healer]

[Lord Ben]

The part of the text I'm concerned with is this part:

-------------------------
Responsible Use of Power. Inherent in the Jedi Code is the concept of responsibility for one's actions. A Jedi who uses Force powers to coerce or control others is surely tending toward the dark side. But other, more
subtle abuses of power also lead to the darkness — Jedi should never use their powers for fame, wealth or power. A Jedi who constantly uses the Force for personal gain is on the path of corruption — perhaps more slowly than the Dark Jedi who chooses to serve evil, but she is on that path nonetheless. True Jedi use their powers sparingly and only when necessary to fulfill the tenets of the Jedi Code. A Jedi who depends on Force powers is abusing them, which leads to folly.
-----------------------

There are 2 force users in the party and 3-4 non-force users. I don't mind the Jedi being more powerful, but I want to take very seriously the RP restrictions against using their powers constantly and for every little thing.

[Volar the Healer]

If you want to take these restrictions seriously, then do so. Perhaps then, you should play the role of the Dark Side and actively attempt to lure the abusive Jedi to his destruction.

What if you gave one Jedi good advice and the other bad? Done subtly, this should raise questions between them (if they're paying attention). I have sometimes refused to answer player's questions "out of game". When pressed, my only respose was "Will the young padawan, berift of his master's guidance, learn the ways of the force? Or will he fall into darkness? Tune in next week..." This is a subtle way to "suggest" your PCs are doing something wrong in a way that they'll start looking for what it might be.

Your players wanted to play Jedi. Remember, the Jedi's worst enemy is themselves.
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[TheFamousTommyZ]

I would go with what Volar said.

Or, in other words, with great power does come great responsibility and an incredible temptation to abuse that power.

Of course, I say this as a prospective GM...I've sat on the other side of the screen and tried to make my arguments that what I was doing wasn't REALLY evil or "dark"...=)

[Lord Ben]

I guess it's also a little bit of the "I try to do the jump to hyperspace, and I concentrate on it, and I'll be calm so the roll is easy" part that bugs me.

Now if he said "I calm myself and feel the force around me, thinking of nothing but the jump to hyperspace. I close my eyes and reach for the hyperspace lever" Then it would bother me far less.

[Volar the Healer]

There is nothing that requires the Director to answer a player's question - especially in the middle of a game. I tell all new players that I tell the players what their characters see. I often tell one character one thing, and another something completly different; depending upon the character's background and their PER/search rolls, then expect the players to act on it. I never use "rules terminology" while I run a game. My players say they can close their eyes and see the events occuring around them because I try to cover all 5 senses during these desctiptions.

In fact there's nothing that requires the Director to answer his player's questions at all. How about "Your master was going to answer that question, but Vader found him first. You must discover the answer on your own."

To answer your question more directly here are some excerpts from one of our games:

Jedi: What do I learn from my receptive telepathy on their commander last round?
Director: You reach out with the force, but cannot find the commander's thoughts.
Jedi: But wait (looking in the rule book). I rolled a 23! That's good enough to do what I want.
Director: (to the group) The Jedi appears to be consulting a datapad as the stormtroopers close to medium range. Tyree, what are YOU doing?
--and--
Jedi: How does this power work, again? Can I do this?
Director: You remember your master's instruction: Do or do not. But make a decision young padawan!

Sometimes allowing the player to experience some of the character's learning can help the play of the game.

Yelling CUT! then docking him one character point everytime he quotes a game statistic also helps a player to "get into the moment". Just remember to reset the scene and yell "Lights, Camera, Action!"
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[Lord Ben]

It's difficult to say because in a game system using your anger to strike down someone like Vader or the Emperor is considered "evil" too.

So obviously the morality in a foce user is a bit different than non-force users. That's why not everyone decides to be force sensitive.

[Esjs]

[Volar the Healer]

Ditto. How can the character be "at peace" when the player is not?

When the player decides his character is "at peace", have him roll will power - but the director sets the difficulty.

Tell the player you will only allow him the bonus for "being calm" if he acts it out (role plays it), otherwise his character can't have the calm bonus.

Try other things like this to get the player to role play and not roll play.

PC1: Great! Another stupid custom inspector.
Custom Inspector: What!? You dare show a lack of respect for Imperial authority?
PC1: No! My character didn't say that out loud!
Director: Your character says what you say.
Custom Inspector: Your documents are not in order! Commander, inspect this ship and report ANY irregularity!
PC2: (to PC1) Shut up! (to Inspector) Why, yes Sir! I'd be happy to cooperate. Ignore my companion, He hasn't been right since that tool box fell on him...
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