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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14168
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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 Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 5:14 am Post subject: |
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Heck i could see said pc having to make it a major quest to
A) find out about them
B) Locate them
C) Convince them to train him and
then he could spend X amt of time out of play while he learns their ways.. Min 2-3 years.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16281
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 8:26 am Post subject: |
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| Madwand wrote: | | So, to wit: What Force powers should Aing-Tii monks actually have? Presumably they would only have a subset of the powers available to Jedi or Sith, plus some unique powers of their own. Perhaps only a subset of those could be learned by non-Force sensitives. What I'm interested in are ideas for what those powers might be. Any ideas? |
Well, based on the game rules, they shouldn't really have anything different or distinct from the "regular" Force powers. However, since Zahn's work is considered official, that makes the teleportation ability official as well. That being said, and with teleportation as a base power, I can make some general suggestions for derivative powers:
Sense Teleport - Allows you to detect when another character uses the teleportation ability nearby.
Track Teleport - Allows you to deduce the destination of another character's successful teleport.
Teleport Another - Allows you to use your teleport ability on another character, friend or foe, or an object (more difficult if an enemy)
Mass Teleport - As Teleport Another, but affects multiple targets
Retrieve - Teleport an item over a short distance into your hand or within reach
Block Teleport - Keeps others from using teleport powers against you without your consent.
Divert Teleport - Allows you you to redirect another character's succesful teleport to a destination of your choosing.
Switch - Uses teleport to switch your location with that of a target character, either friend or foe.
Jump - Assuming the normal teleport takes some time to prepare, this version happens instantly, and can be used for attacks (teleport in next to an enemy and attack them the instant your teleport completes) or defense (dodge attacks by teleporting out of the way.
Teleport Attack - Allows you to attack another character by teleporting portions of their anatomy away from them, inflicting damage.
Teleport Barrier - Allows you to designate an area in which the teleport powers of others do not function (can be overriden by an opposing roll)
The basis for these powers is drawn from the D&D 3.5 Expanded Psionics Sourcebook.
It's also noteworthy that, if time is a physical dimension (as is currently theorized), then being able to move from one location to another instantaneously, and without crossing the intervening distance, would also allow you to time travel. Personally, I would be very careful with this, and the Expanded Psionics Handbook has some interesting ideas for how short jumps in time (a round or two) could be useful.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Forceally
Commodore
Joined: 20 Feb 2007
Posts: 1058
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| Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 11:30 am Post subject: |
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| WotC has already created stats for the Aing-Tii teleportation power. It's called fold space, and it's in the Jedi Academy Training Manual. It's been converted by Gry Sarth. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16281
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 11:52 am Post subject: |
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| Forceally wrote: | | WotC has already created stats for the Aing-Tii teleportation power. It's called fold space, and it's in the Jedi Academy Training Manual. It's been converted by Gry Sarth. |
Naturally. Hey, Gry, do you have the stats for a left-handed hammer?
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Madwand
Sub-Lieutenant
Joined: 06 May 2009
Posts: 57
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| Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Forceally wrote: | | WotC has already created stats for the Aing-Tii teleportation power. It's called fold space, and it's in the Jedi Academy Training Manual. It's been converted by Gry Sarth. |
Well, this is nice to know about. Unfortunately the difficulties listed in that power are over-the-top. We already have an NPC Aing-Tii navigator that can teleport an entire frigate through space, and I'm quite sure he doesn't have the 30D skill or so that power implies he would need to have. |
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Raven Redstar
Rear Admiral
Joined: 10 Mar 2009
Posts: 2648
Location: Salem, OR
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| Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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| That's because the Aing-Tii combine action, generally you have an entire crew of a ship focusing together to fold space around it. Which is why a non-force user being able to transport a frigate is well... an unrealistic expectation. |
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Madwand
Sub-Lieutenant
Joined: 06 May 2009
Posts: 57
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| Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Raven Redstar wrote: | | That's because the Aing-Tii combine action, generally you have an entire crew of a ship focusing together to fold space around it. Which is why a non-force user being able to transport a frigate is well... an unrealistic expectation. |
Actually I've been looking at the original SAGA writeup of the Fold Space power. It's quite reasonable, a single (very good) user could transport a frigate without much problem. It looks like Gary translated the power over too conservatively, stacking on distance and mass penalties, and adding further disadvantages to make actually using the power almost impossible. I'm going to try to write up a more faithful translation of the power and send that along to my GM. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16281
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 10:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Madwand wrote: | | Actually I've been looking at the original SAGA writeup of the Fold Space power. It's quite reasonable, a single (very good) user could transport a frigate without much problem. It looks like Gary translated the power over too conservatively, stacking on distance and mass penalties, and adding further disadvantages to make actually using the power almost impossible. I'm going to try to write up a more faithful translation of the power and send that along to my GM. |
I think you may be reading too much into it. 30 squares by D20 rules is a fair distance in real space, but is nothing compared to the interstellar distances you're talking about, and that is only achievable with a DC of 40. Now considering the goal is to beat that DC with the roll of a 20-sided die, plus whatever accumulated bonuses you have, to succeed even half the time would require a minimum +30 modifier, and that is the range of very high-level characters when using the D20 system. Increasing the size of the object transported, or doubling the distance, requires expending a Force Point. Having read both the D20 original and Gry Srth's D6 conversion, if anything, the conversion is overly generous compared to the original, which completely left out the possibility of transporting an object across interstellar distances (after all, 60 squares does not a hyperspace jump make).
Bottom line, this might be something a single character might be powerful enough to use to move an object within the bounds of a planetary system, but true interstellar distances would require multiple beings working in concert, at the very least.
No offense, but it sounds as if the GM in your game introduced a power that is rather unbalanced, in that its power greatly outstrips its difficulty, and you seem to be trying to ret-con existing rules and source material to conform to your game. There's nothing wrong with having things happen differently in your game; we are all here to play and have a good time, and if you can get your GM to agree to it, more power to you. You can always invent your own version, or come up with your own rule as to why it works, but as it stands, a 9D level Force-user being able to transport a 300 meter Capital Ship across interstellar distances by him- or herself is not realistic when compared to the official material about the Aing-Tii monks.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Madwand
Sub-Lieutenant
Joined: 06 May 2009
Posts: 57
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| Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 2:27 am Post subject: |
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I disagree entirely. I'll note that my PC is only a 1D-level "Force" user at the moment. I am trying to compete with much better Force users in the game. And you are missing the writeup on the Aing-Tii on page 73. Given that, my translation is as follows:
Fold Space
Difficulty: Difficult, modified by size or distance
Required Powers: Magnify senses, life sense, life detection, instinctive astrogation.
Time to use: One round
Effect: This power allows the user to bend space and send nearby objects through the fold, transporting them instantly to the desired destination.
If the object being moved through the fold in space is a container or starship, any object or being within the container, vehicle, or ship is also moved. Succeeding at the base difficulty allows the user to send any approximately human-sized object up to 12 space units. The difficulties are increased as follows should the user desire to send a larger object or transport the object farther:
+5 Large object (up to landspeeder-sized) up to 24 space units
+10 Huge object (AT-ST walker, TIE fighter) up to 36 space units
+15 Gargantuan object (repulsor tank, X-wing) up to 48 space units
+20 Colossal object (AT-AT walker, light freighter) up to 60 space units
+25 Frigate-sized object up to 72 space units
+30 Cruiser-sized object up to 88 space units
Each additional +5 to difficulty can also double the distance moved.
Source: Jedi Academy Training Manual (page 25)
Folded Space Mastery
Difficulty: See "Fold Space" and astrogation skill.
Required Powers: Fold Space
Effect: While you are the pilot of a vehicle, you can use the Fold Space power to move the vehicle across long distances. If your check to activate the power is sufficient to move an object of the same size as your vehicle, you can use the power to move your vehicle and all of its occupants safely to the desired destination. You use your check instead of an astrogation roll, as though calculating a hyperspace jump. This otherwise uses the normal rules for hyperspace travel, though travel is instantaneous and requires no hyperdrive.
Source: Jedi Academy Training Manual (page 73)
The only difficulty is how to translate the expenditure of a "Force point". I did my best. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16281
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:17 am Post subject: |
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| Madwand wrote: | | I disagree entirely. I'll note that my PC is only a 1D-level "Force" user at the moment. I am trying to compete with much better Force users in the game. And you are missing the writeup on the Aing-Tii on page 73. |
My information on the Aing-Tii is based on the original write-up on pages 14-17 of the Kathol Outback adventure book. In that write-up, the Aing-Tii are portrayed as normal Force Users from an alternate tradition, and their ships are given a normal hyperdrive multiplier rating. No hint was ever made as to their teleporting ability until Timothy Zahn wrote Vision of the Future.
Having read the description on page 73 of the Jedi Academy Training Manual, I reiterate my former position, that space folding a capital ship across interstellar distances would be the province of either a powerful individual under special circumstances, or the combined efforts of an entire crew of Force users, each contributing their individual power to a whole.
| Madwand wrote: | | The only difficulty is how to translate the expenditure of a "Force point". I did my best. |
Mostly, it just looks like a more complicated version of the existing D6 conversion. The D6 conversion stats combine Space Fold and Space Fold Mastery into a single skill, using the classic D6 standard of dice roll vs. difficulty, rather than character level. I would suggest using the original version, with a lower base difficulty level appropriate to your campaign's rated munchkin capacity. That way, expending a Force point has the normal effect of doubling the dice roll, so that a character of middling-to-high Force power might be able to make an interstellar fold with a small Capital Ship all by himself, but he would have to expend a Force Point to do it.
At 1D, your character isn't really going to be able to do much with this power anyway. That stuff will come along later. Are you picking up this game mid-stream? It seems terribly unbalanced for you to be trying to compete with Force users who are already so much farther ahead of you.
Ultimately, just do what you want. You don't need to justify your position to us; every campaign is different, and what fits in one won't fit in the other. Just be prepared for an honest opinion when you present the forum in general with an idea.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Madwand
Sub-Lieutenant
Joined: 06 May 2009
Posts: 57
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| Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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| I object to the tone of your message. I am not a "munchkin" and my conversion is more faithful to the source material than the existing one. Object however you might, but Vision of the Future and the source material in the Jedi Academy Training Manual are canon. A single very good Force-user CAN fairly easily teleport vehicles vast distances using those rules. Not every GM will want to allow their players to do that, but as I've said that isn't an issue here. Gary's conversion of Fold Space just does not allow a Force-user to do what the original power describes. It has several problems, but the main one is how it specifies difficulty due to mass. I'm sorry, but I just don't KNOW the mass of a Star Wars ship. Even if I did, I suspect the difficulty numbers specified by his conversion would be unrealistically high, as he starts at a few kilograms rather than "medium" human size AND he adds on distance as a separate target number adder, among several other disadvantages compared to the original writeup. |
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hazardchris
Commander
Joined: 01 Nov 2005
Posts: 362
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| Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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I had a player who's character had always been a little more in-tune with the visions aspect of the Force. I allowed him to eventually go study with the Aing-Tii. What he did was learn more of their philosophy for a few months before they decided to teach him how to Flow-Walk.
While I had some rough rules for it, it pretty much boiled down with having to get a heroic roll with all three Force Skills. As for the effects they were more of a plot movement than a goal, so I just had him tell me to what point in time he was trying to see. |
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Madwand
Sub-Lieutenant
Joined: 06 May 2009
Posts: 57
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| Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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| I might be missing something, but flow-walking to me just seems like a reflavored version of Farseeing. The Jedi Academy Training Manual agrees. |
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hazardchris
Commander
Joined: 01 Nov 2005
Posts: 362
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| Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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| It is, with the added bonus that you can interact with certain objects. Or at least, that's how I ran it. You can also leave impressions of yourself. Once, I had him encounter someone's impression while he was flow-walking due to a complication on the wild die. |
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Madwand
Sub-Lieutenant
Joined: 06 May 2009
Posts: 57
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| Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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| That sounds really interesting. What other powers did the Aing-Tii have in your universe? Were you mostly making them up or did you have a source for some of them? |
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