Size over Scale

[adamlumina93]

Has anyone noticed that by going by the book rules if you were flying a starfighter it it is harder to hit a sail barge (30m length) than an A-Wing (9m length) Does anyone use a chart that takes into account the size of the object being fired at rather than the scale?

[Ray]

That's why I like the new rules in the new D6 Space Rulebook from West End Games.

I suggest checking it out to fix a lot of things about scale.

[Argamoth]

I thought a sail barge would be starfighter scale. Easier to hit, on account that a A-wing moves really fast and will probably try to dodge out of the way.

[Grimace]

Well, it depends entirely upon which version of the rules you use.

I use Die Caps, and can explain things very easily.

A sail barge, being 30 meters long, is quite large indeed, but it is very slow moving, perhaps even stationary compared to the X-wing.

An A-Wing, while quite a bit smaller, is in the same "atmosphere" of fighting as the X-Wing, and generally moving at roughly the same speeds. (meaning they both move at "space" speeds rather than the difference of ground movement vs. flight movement.)

Using die caps from 2nd edition, the sail barge dodges normally, which is just the pilot's roll, as the thing has no maneuverability, and the X-Wing pilot is capped at 4 to hit it with his Gunnery and Fire Control. I take the cap to indicate the difficulty (and it is rather difficult) to hit a target on the ground while you're zipping by it at flight speeds.

So an X-wing pilot may actually have to strafe the area a couple times to hit the sail barge effectively. Once that happens though, watch out!

A sail barge hit by an X-wing rolls 2D Body Strength, with the dice capped at 3! That gives you roughly a total of 6 resistance points (not counting the wild die coming up 6.) The X-wing, however, rolls 6D, which are counted normally for damage. That gives you a rough average of 21! (not counting the wild die coming up 6.) That's an average difference of 15, resulting in a Severely damaged Sail barge with just one hit from the X-Wing. If the X-wing were to roll greater than average, and the Sail barge not roll it's absolute best, then you're looking at a completely destroyed sail barge.

In my mind, that comes out about how I would figure it.

While the A-Wing is smaller, it get's to add in it's 4D Maneuverability to avoid shots, AND it gets to resist with full dice potential. So while it is only 2D+2 in hull, it's average roll is going to 9, and it's total roll could be considerably higher, especially if you add in the 1D in shields.

So while it might seem odd, and maybe even play odd using the "added dice" scale method in R&E, the whole thing makes a fair bit of sense.

[Jedi Skyler]

That's a really good way of putting it, Grimace! I think the only way to possibly modify those high difficulties for the Awing to hit the barge would be for the pilot to declare he's slowing down (or to take a round to aim, starting from FAR out there!) That would shed some of the difficulty to hit HIM as well, but it ought to make his shot at the barge a little easier...

[Argamoth]

Is there any place where the rules for dice caps are posted? People keep on talking about them but never explain them...

[Jedi Skyler]

Haven't yet seen 'em...

[Boomer]

They should indeed be posted, I'll find em, and put them here.
_________________
My backpack has jets!
I'm Boba the Fett!
And I bounty hunt for Jabba Hutt,
to finance my 'vette!

[Grimace]

Once, long ago, there was a site that had the Die Cap rules posted, but the link is long dead.

Suffice to say, for an explanation, die caps go like this:

When a larger scale tries to hit a smaller scale, the larger scale has its die rolls capped at a certain number. This is to generally represent how much more difficult it is to hit the smaller item, either because of its size or because of the degree of difference between the two items (such as the fighter strafing the relatively slow moving sail barge). When a scale is trying to shoot at something equal or greater than it, there is no change to the dice.

Likewise, when a smaller scale item is attempting to dodge, there *may* be a die cap involved for its dodge roll. This is generally to represent the size of the weapons being shot or the overall ability of the item to physically move enough to dodge the shot. For example, a person trying to dodge a shot from another person has no die cap (or is listed as a cap of 6). However, if the person tries to dodge a shot from a speeder scale weapon, the person's dodge is capped at 5. Same for dodging weapons from a Walker. Against a strafing space fighter (Starfighter scale), his dodge is capped at 3. Basically, those big blasts from the fighters cannons, and the speed at which the fighter zooms by shooting, is so much that a person can't realistically dodge out of the way very easily. Against Capital scale and Death Star Scale, the cap is listed as "--" meaning that a character cannot dodge against weapons of that scale...and rightfully so. You're not going to dodge a Star Destroyer's turbolaser blast and you simply cannot get out of the way of the Death Star's superlaser.

Finally, you have a damage cap, which gives you a representation of how smaller scale things can't stand up against the larger scale weapons, or do as much damage against larger scale items. The damage caps are listed as 6/6 or something of the sort, with the first being the primary scale and the second being the scale it is affecting. So in the case of a Character being shot by a fighter, you have the following: 6/2 What this means is when a character is hit by the blasts of the fighter, (the Fighter being the primary) he rolls his Strength and caps the dice at 2. The fighter, on the other hand, rolls damage and doesn't suffer a cap. If the person was in a Walker, and being shot at by a fighter, the cap would be 3/6, meaning that when you rolled the Walker's body strength, it would be capped at 3 and the figther's weapons would still not be capped. In reverse, if the Character was shooting and hitting the Fighter, the scale reads as 2/6, with the Character as the primary. That means that the character's weapon damage is capped at 2, while the Fighter's hull and shield rolls are not capped. In some cases, the scale is listed as -/6, which essentially means that the primary scale cannot effect the other scale. This is the scale as listed for Character and Capital. This means, no matter how much character damage is done to a capital ship, it will not cause a Capital ship "hull code" roll, as none of the damage will be enough to cause any damage other than superficial.

Having the die caps like this eliminates a lot of the silly problems you have with the "added dice" method of Revised and Expanded. You don't have problems of people with lightsabers and 14D in Force Abilities, cutting through the outer hull of Star Destroyers, or people packing shuttles full of character scale explosives, packing a whopping 50D damage and takign out a Capital scale ship (or greater!). With die caps, the shuttles simply explode, charring the outer skin of the big ships, maybe ruining some external antennas or something.

The BIG thing to remember with die caps, and this is something that many people got wrong when first trying to decipher how to use the die cap system, is if your die roll is GREATER than the cap on the dice, the amount of the die becomes the capped number....it is NOT dropped from the counting. I have heard many people think that you dropped the dice from the total if it was over the cap. This is not the case!

So if you had a skill with 6D and you were capped at 3, your dice rolls of 4, 1, 3, 5, 5, and 2 (on the wild die) would read as follows:
3, 1, 3, 3, 3, and 2...for a total of 15 (instead of 20).

If I had rolled the above, but with a 6 on the wild die, I would read it as follows:
3, 1, 3, 3, 3, and 3, and then I would roll the wild die again. If the second roll of the wild die came up as a 3, 4, or 5, I would count it as 3 and add it to the total and be done. If it came up as another 6, I would add 3 and then roll the wild die once again, and so on until I didn't roll another 6.

These rules, though probably not as elaborately spelled out, can be found on page 71 of the Star Wars 2nd edition RPG Book. Further explanations of the scales would need to be found in some of the Adventure Journals and in private correspondance with people from the old West End Games.

Hope this helps explain things a little better.

[Jedi Skyler]

That's a very good explanation, Grimace! Thanks for clearing it up.

[cheshire]

I believe that die caps are posted in the 2nd edition (not R&E). I'll post the chart here so you have it in a nice format.

_____________________________________
D6 Scale Die Cap Chart
http://s28.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=0D7264I6SS7F818OAUJLCPMWDF
_____________________________________

[Boomer]

Thanks Cheshire, I was just about to mention that I couldn;t find them, only vaguely remember them.
_________________
My backpack has jets!
I'm Boba the Fett!
And I bounty hunt for Jabba Hutt,
to finance my 'vette!

[Argamoth]

Ok, I think I got it. But it never reduces the number of dice being rolled, correct?

[Boomer]

Correct, no reduction or increase.
_________________
My backpack has jets!
I'm Boba the Fett!
And I bounty hunt for Jabba Hutt,
to finance my 'vette!

[Grimace]