Structures and procedures matter: Comments Thread

[jtanzer]

Please post your comments and discussions here. I'll try to answer when I can.

Edit: I was asked to put a link to the original thread in here so people can find it easier.
So here it is.
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The best villians are the ones the PCs create.

[cheshire]

I think you're raising a fascinating aspect of Gamemastering that I haven't put much thought into, the procedural GM component.

I'm wondering if WEG wasn't right on their own grounds, and also wrong on the grounds that you lay out. GMing is a set of evolving skill sets that develop in the context of the game and social contexts in which those games exist.

I would say that fundamentally you are correct that there is a "good ol' boys club" when it comes to GMing. While companies sell books hoping new communities will buy them to expand their reach, most roleplaying happens as a part of social zeitgeist. I learned how to play and later learned to GM because someone who played enough to want to GM and he invited me and my friends to a table. My play style evolved from his experiences and insights that he made overt. I inherited some of his mistakes that I needed to unlearn.

It sounds like procedural components of a dungeon were included in the first gen of GMing pedagogy, but (and I'm taking WEG's word for it here) maybe not "how to establish the scene," or "How to make a dialog feel like it belongs in setting." WEG's instruction is entirely lacking in things that are part of the current social dialog of games in terms of recognizing emotional bleed, incorporation of safety mechanisms, what to cover in session zero, etc.

I think you're right about something that was a learned skill became obvious. Once obvious it is not part of the explicit pedagogy and only exists as unwritten rules meant to be discerned and replicated. That discernment and replications process would be challenging for those not brought up in the same pool of knowledge.
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Before we take any of this too seriously, just remember that in the middle episode a little rubber puppet moves a spaceship with his mind.

[FVBonura]

I’m glad you brought this topic up because I have tried to reverse engineer my own 40 years of experience as a game master. Suffice to say it might behoove a new game master to read the first edition of the dungeon Masters guide to see where many of our traditions come from. I agree that many of the methods that I use come from first edition Advanced Dungeons & Dragons and I actually still consult the first edition dungeon Masters guide for certain solutions that simply don’t exist in newer RPG‘s. I will be watching this thread closely I have much to contribute but this is my first thought on the subject.
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Star Wars Deckplans Alliance
Star Wars Prequel Commentary

[cheshire]

[FVBonura]

[FVBonura]

I did most of my learning by playing and studying other DMs/GMs. My advice to all of you, find the oldest curmudgeon who is DM/GM and try to join his game. My youngest player is in his 30's and I am very much cognizant he is learning from me. When I played his game, I made suggestions based on what he learned from my game. Very rewarding to see a young disciple grow as a GM.
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Star Wars Deckplans Alliance
Star Wars Prequel Commentary

[raithyn]

I think my foremost comment would have to be an echo of your conclusion:

[FVBonura]

Like all things it’s a delicate balancing act. It often takes decades to master the skills and feel comfortable behind the shield. In the meantime, younger game masters are going to need some training wheels. Even I have moments where I can’t think of anything to do and it is nice to have a random chart to fall back on to plant a new seed to keep the story moving. Usually the players will come up with something, but there are flat spots where the game stalls and there needs to be an injection of some random seed to restore momentum. I find the Star Wars role-playing game has this one weakness. If all the ducks land in a row, it is very easy to maintain “faster more intense” but at the very least ideas, often generated by automated spreadsheets, need to be kept in reserve to prevent player boredom.
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Star Wars Deckplans Alliance
Star Wars Prequel Commentary

[FVBonura]

jtanzer I read everything from the Alexandrian as well as your comments. OK I’ve been at this since 1982, and a lot of it I’ve had to learn the hard way. I agree we need to make it easier for new game masters to learn the craft. If we don’t we risk going extinct and that is unacceptable. You have clearly and concisely outlined the problem. What do you propose to solve the problem? I really want to help but I’d like to see what your plans are before we proceed.
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Star Wars Deckplans Alliance
Star Wars Prequel Commentary

[pakman]

TLDR VERSION: I don't think we need a ruleset to duplicate how to be a GM beyond any system specifics, as there is an almost infinite amount of resources available today on being a GM.

This comment thread

First off - I would suggest putting a link to the main post - in the first entry in the comment post - as over time - the main post will fall in the dated listing of threads.

The Main Post
If I read the post correctly it is ;

Some games do, and some games do not teach a GM (or players) how to play and run a game. GM's with experience have a big advantage

Sure fair enough. Today - with modern resources - I don't feel that is as big a deal as it once was.

So - I am not clear on the purpose of the main post?
is just to start a topic on "how to be a better SWGM?" or a functional commentary on what should or should not be in a rules set?

Back to the comments thread

I think there are some interesting topics - such as the idea of "procedural how to GM" and then the "missing solutions".

Ironically, as I am in the final stages of my own massive house rules overhaul (making a full new rulebook, instead of just changes - like an idiot...) I have given a lot of thought on some of these topics.

After much thought - I have decided to NOT include content around "how to game master" procedural step by step or other.

Why? Because there are literally hundreds if not thousands of already high quality blog posts, forums comments and youtube videos on this exact topic.

Here are some of the topics I DO think should be in a star wars ruleset.
(or at least a few in the theme of this comment thread).

* Star wars session zero - settings, time periods, canon and more.
* Game "flavor" - gritty insurgents, bold daring heroes, or fringe outlaws etc. (all need to be in the same game).
* Campaign duration and pacing (ties into advancement).
* Character death options
* how strict is are the dark side balancing mechanisms
* adding new characters into an existing campaign
* Character power levels and balancing encounters
* How to do random encounters
* Rewards, loot, resources and reputation.
* etc.

I am also think on making it "star wars" and more specifically about keeping it cinematic (not getting bogged down in details) is good for a SWRPG.

Other similar topics, but part of other rules -
* character starting age affects (I mean - unless playing a REALLY long game)
* Yes, you should have simple encumbrance rules.
* converting adventures from other systems.
* Suggestions for remote and online play.

But to be clear...
Besides of hundreds of videos, forums etc. over the years, I too have read my old DM's guide - and do have to agree - that huge old book with the tiny text (a lot more tiny these days....) had a treasure trove of information - that a lot of more modern game systems don't seem to have (or as completely).

While I can see the value in such - I don't think in this day and age it needs to be in every ruleset - beyond system specifics.

Interesting posts - and did remind me to put in suggestions about characters of extreme age (i.e. where it could matter to stats) in character creation.

Be well my friends, and may the wild die be with you.
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SW Fan, Gamer, Comic, Corporate nerd.
Working on massive House Rules document - pretty much a new book. Will post soon....

[Whill]

[Whill]

[jtanzer]

[FVBonura]

[jtanzer]

Not really. I do like your usage of searching for a crate though. It's not that hard to visualize how that might play out in both systems either: In D&D, every 'dungeon turn' (i.e. 10 minutes), there is a 1/6 chance that an random encounter might turn up, That makes the decision to search - and even how thoroughly you do it - highly important. By contrast, in WEG SW, you roll for your Search check and......? The skill rules clearly state that using a skill takes time (just like in OD&D), but that time usage doesn't have any consequences attached to it. It just...exsists, kind of like someone may have been planning on using it, but forgot. (Which in all fairness, may have actually been the case. However, it doesn't really matter whether Hanlon's Razor is applicable or not, the effect is still the same.)

It's kind of a shame that GMs aren't being given that kind of training.