Concussion Missiles - What a Mess

[FVBonura]

Please refer to "Star Wars , The Roleplaying Game" (blue rulebook with Darth Vader's face on the cover), 2nd Ed, page 165, Starfighter-Scale Weapons Chart as this will be foundational to this discussion.

As some of you know I have taken a deep dive on the cost, weight, and energy consumption of all the weapons in the SWRPG. Hundreds of weapons have no prices and/or lack complete stats. Considering all weapon repairs and modifications are based on the new retail price of the weapon, West End Games left us Gamemasters some heavy lifting to fix this. I have been working on spreadsheets to solve for X since 2013. Today I am going to share a small piece of my research -- Concussion Missiles (Starfighter-scale). Here is a link to one of my many spreadsheets:

Concussion Missiles Starfighter-scale.xlsx

I have discovered with the exception of about 5 references (shaded in green) all of the range statistics for starfighter-scale concussion missiles are either using the range stats for Proton Torpedoes or are incorrect in some way. Please note my remarks in the last column.

[CRMcNeill]

My issues with ordnance have gone way beyond just ranges. IMO, the entire concussion missile / proton torpedo RAW is far, far too limiting. My take is that “concussion” and “proton” are two different warhead types (among several others, including ion, plasma/thermal, etc), while “missile” and “torpedo” being two different methods of warhead delivery (missile being fast and maneuverable but fragile, and torpedo being slower but enclosed in an energy envelope that both protects it from point defenses and allows it to more easily penetrate shields.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index

[FVBonura]

You are right about the system being limited but that is not a negative for all GMs. The SWRPG is a middle ground, balanced RPG for complexity. If GMs crave a deeper complexity and more accurate results in play, GURPS may be a better fit. If loose rules and storytelling are the priority, FATE may be a better choice.

My mission and calling are to fix the tools we have with the least amount of change needed to accomplish that task. Are the ranges wrong? Yes, at least partly. Were these weapons named incorrectly and are really torpedoes? Maybe but this theory wont sail with the Skipray Blastboat because it uses both systems in different parts of the ship.

I agree the two weapon systems, their warheads, and their means of propulsion are different. It would appear the rules on page 165 of the 2.0 rulebook likewise agree. I am here to fix what I believe to be are TYPOs perpetuated by copy/pasting without checking what is being copied is in fact correct. The SWRPG is festooned with copy/paste errors that become glaringly obvious when you place the data in chronological order.

[Impaler]

I certainly like the idea of the warheads being fundamentally different. In my mind I envision Proton warheads as being like a shaped charge or HEAT warhead, they fundamentally produce piercing blasts good at getthing through armor. Thus why they were needed on the DeathStar, at the bottom of that exhasut port the reactor vessel needed to be breached.

While Concussion warheads are just omini-direction booms maybe with some fragmentation, maybe not, they might also act like a squash warhead when impacting armor, either way they generally do not penetrate but can cause shock damage to delecate systems or un armored components of a ship. Against a fighter basically any hit any where should be lethal.


In addition to the Missile/Torpedo delivery mechanisms you also have 'Rocket' a reasonably fast but unguided straitline shot that's only good against slow moving capitol ships and 'Bomb' an amost naked warhead with no propulsion and just a mere contact detonator switch, these need to be ejected laterally from a 'bomber' to avoid running into their own ordinance and are best for use against planetary surfaces where gravity is on your side.

[FVBonura]

CRMcNeill and Impaler if you’ve looked at the chart in the second edition rulebook and you’ve looked at my spreadsheet I’m interested to know if we actually have a massive array of typos for this particular weapon system? As I’m working on my spreadsheet I’d like to know if I should conform to the original standard set in the second edition rulebook? This of course will make those weapon systems slightly more expensive. Likewise adding minimal shielding to the ordinance will also slightly increase price.

For those who have been following my work, I’ve discovered that starfighter scale weapons have been horribly underpriced and anything to raise the price of these weapons is a positive because they actually bring down the prices of other scales of weapons to compensate during statistical linear regression.
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[garhkal]

I've always seen the same range for both as a feature due more to the launchers.. The warhead is what is different.. BUT that's also why i have to additional grades.
Light concussions and ER concussion missiles.
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[Mamatried]

I have been a bit conflicted too about this topic, but like mentioned in the thread already I have mostly made the gifference in Torpedo and Missile.

I came to the conclusion that they are the same weapon system, given different names by aughtors. Much like "communications Officer" being a seperate rank and not a "role served by the officer regardless of rank"

If both are in fact the same system then using one of the stats is IMO the best.

However it is also very likely that it is two different systems (Delivery systems)
and I have solved this by making the Torpedo "dumb" and the missile "smart"
with the main difference being the ability to track the target.

in our little speck of galaxy we have managed to develop torpedos with some degree of targeting system, and to a degree capale of tracking a target.

We of course also have this on most Missiles, though some are still "dumb" most in use have tracking systems as well as other sensory tools to find and destry the target.

So I landed on both delivery systems being able to use the same type of warheds with the difference in the systems is that the Torpedo is a line of sight weapon, with a targeting system limited to tracking only within the programmed range.
With the Tracking I mean the ability to lock on to and follow the target until impact.

to me a star wars torpedo is capable of this, but this will then negate the need for missiles.

So what did I land on as to missiles?

I decided that most missiles can use the same type of warheads, Ion, Proton etc.
The main differnce comes in delivery and the missle property vs the torpedo
With the Missile I went for a slightly more advance targeting system, that allows thre missile to track and destroy a target beyond the listled range.

The range for a torpedo is the operational distance it can track and destroy and be "aimed" with the basic "fule/propulsion" having limited reach as well making the topedo become imobile and "dead in space" shortly after extreme range is reached....these torpedos are still loaded and can still be set off, but it can be recovered.

a misslie on the other hand can be fired and "aimed" likewise as the stats, however the missile is smarte munitions and when fired the Missle have a skill = to the firec control+3D after being launched, it can use these skill dice to go beyond it's statted reach, encuring MAP penalty for each addtional rangeband beyond extreme. (basically range can be as much as double)

I also decided that missiles are smalled in size and that only missiles can be fored in atmosphere and space both, while torpedos are space weapons only (space ebing our version of the sea and navy combat)

[CRMcNeill]

WEG stats are replete with errors; that was one of the biggest reasons why I started doing my stat rewrites. I’m more than willing to accept that the range discrepancies for concussion missiles and proton torpedoes are the result of writer / editor error.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index

[FVBonura]

Just so we are literally on the same page, I am sharing the chart highlighted and only the chart for this discussion. [waves fair use flag]

Starfighter Weapons - SWRPG 2.0, page 165
Concussion Missiles Starfighter-scale.xlsx

Well... Wow, I find the GM interpretations almost as interesting as the number of TYPOs I found in the RPG.

I am contemplating reaching out to some WEG employees to get to the bottom of all this and sharing this discussion on Facebook as well. I will wait a few more days to let a few more GMs share their thoughts here.

garhkal and Mamatried if you could please take a moment to view chart and spreadsheet (links above) and opine if you think we have TYPOs here or something else?

CRMcNeill, I agree, and I suspect I may have found the biggest mistake in the SWRPG. Lucky me.
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Star Wars Deckplans Alliance
Star Wars Prequel Commentary

[Mamatried]

[FVBonura]

[deano]

FVBonura, thanks for pulling the data together. Very interesting and not one I’ve spotted before.

The ranges always seemed way too short and I would agree that the difference between a missile and a torpedo is ill defined in the rule set (and muddled as it turns out). I think Chris Curtis did some work on the subject back in the day. I’ll see if I can dig it out.

Deano
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TORIS - toris.magriller.net

[FVBonura]

[CRMcNeill]

Some more detailed thoughts:

My take on Range generally is that it represents effective range, not absolute range, and a sufficiently skilled character can hit beyond Long Range by dint of understanding the behavior characteristics of a given weapon (thus my Marksman Advanced Skill). As such, a missile’s range is less a function of how far it can go before it runs out of fuel than it is of how accurately the gunner can direct it onto target. If you look at my Ordnance Stat Rewrites, you’ll see that the basic weapons have the same ranges as their RAW counterparts, but the ranges double when combined with the Lock-On rule. This is due to the guidance provided by the Lock-On allowing the weapon to be much more responsive, with a greater performance envelope relative to a weapon “fired dumb”.

Another potential factor is whether or not the launcher itself incorporates some sort of booster mechanism, like a mass driver of some sort that imparts additional speed to the weapon on launch. This would have the effect of increasing effective range by boosting the weapon’s velocity, thus reducing its time-to-target.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index

[Mamatried]

Maybe we could use the "fire control" stats form the launchers here to find this difference?

How about you launch a torpedo, using starship gunnery+firecontrol and then the torpedo is lauched and can not be guided further.

the misslie is fired in the same way, but also contains a very limited droid brain allowing the misslie to adjust it's own trajectory by rolling on firecontrol or even having a "flght" skill.
the missle is launched by firecontrol+ starship gunnery, and once in flight can be giuded by subsequent rolls using firecontrol.
the more advanced the more "effective" the missile, which makes some sens to me.

so the misslie now can roll every round using the "fire control" as skill this is to adjust, keep lock -on, and track/follow a target that is contantly moving.

I would also maybe say that the Torpedo is a weapon designed to target "slow moving" large ships, frieghters and captial ships and the misslies being more for starfighter to starfighter combar, but still haivng an effect on the larger ships according to it's warhead.

I can not see how to effectively use torpedos in a "dog fight" but I can see misslies being used in this way, and most time dogfighting is fighter vs fighter, more so than fighter vs destroyer