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CRMcNeill
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 Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2024 1:46 pm Post subject: Partial-Round Movement |
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The interaction between movement and Cover has always bothered me, particularly w/r/t my Dodge re-write. Logically, it should be possible for a character to sprint at Full or All-Out Speed and cover a much shorter distance in a fraction of a round. This would be particularly useful in combat when attempting to move from one piece of cover to another, but it isn’t technically allowed under the RAW.
I’ve wrestled with this for a while, and recently had an epiphany. I’ve structured a lot of my house rules around the x2=+1D / x1/2=-1D rule of thumb, and time is simply another dimension. Thus, if a character is only exposed for part of a given time period (such as a five-second combat round), then they should receive an effective Partial Cover Bonus for the portion of the round they are under cover.
Here’s what I’m thinking:Suppose a character with a Move of 10 is behind Cover, but wants to Move to another piece of Cover 10 meters away. He declares an All-Out Move, which will allow him to Move 40 meters that round, even though he’s only going to travel 10 meters (I house rule that characters can go from a standing start to High or All-Out if they use the Preparation rule).
Because he’s only exposed for 1/4 of the Round, he gets a +2D bonus to avoid being hit.
Conversely, if he were only moving at High Speed, he’d be exposed for 1/2 of the round, and the bonus would drop to 1D.
Difficulty would be as standard for the Terrain; all the GM would need to do is divide the distance to be covered by the maximum possible distance for whatever Move the character is making, then apply the resulting fraction to the Partial Cover chart linked above. Thoughts?
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pakman
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| Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2024 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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Interesting. This feels ....crunchy.
I solved this by allowing more than one move a round.
It just really felt a LOT more simple and more immersive than raw.
That way - your cover bonus is based on when you are in cover and when they shoot (i.e. the action steps) - I don't have to mess with abstracting it.
Now - you have other rules - so your system might work well for you - but it feels ....very detailed.
Pak's movement rules
Half move - this is a free action, can be done once a round.
Full move - this is an action, once a round, move base rate.
Dash - this is an action, once a round, move base rate.
Sprint - full round action, move based on Athletics roll.
If an opponent wanted to hit a character between moves from cover to cover, they would do a Ready action.
Ready Action allows a character to describe a trigger event and a response Action to it. The Ready Action counts as the same type (Free, Normal, etc.) as the declared response Action.
So the opponent would say "I am going to ready an action to shoot him if he runs from cover". Then if the other character ran from cover to cover, the shooter could make the shot as a reaction. MAP apply.
Also - if a character moves a Dash or full round - I grant a +1D to hit them based on the situation - up to the GM (I feel there were supposed to be movement based difficulties in the rules at one point - but got dropped - as the stormtrooper helmet gives a bonus to hit moving targets - which implies the should be harder to hit - but that is a different topic).
If a character moves more than once - that is considered they had to use a faster speed - MY gaming group finds it much easier than to mess with all the movement as a single action and having to do speeds etc.
Is it 100% realistic? Not really - but for my group - we like options and simplicity over simulation - each group has to find their balance.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2024 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, it’s a little crunchy, but part of why I posted it is to solicit ideas to decrunchify it. I see it more as an adjunct to the existing Movement rules, so I suppose either would work depending on individual preferences.
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pakman
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| Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2024 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Yes, it’s a little crunchy, but part of why I posted it is to solicit ideas to decrunchify it. I see it more as an adjunct to the existing Movement rules, so I suppose either would work depending on individual preferences. |
Well - my de-crunchy version if not splitting movement (I mean - the post title is about splitting movement - so I would split movement) but if you wanted to work on bonuses for moving between cover I would ;
Just give a +1D cover bonus to represent the mixing of cover.
I would skip all the math and speeds or all of that.
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cheshire
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| Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2024 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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I guess I'm trying to figure out if the effort is worth the payoff in terms of how often this specific scenario comes up in game. How often does everyone encounter a problem these mechanics would rectify?
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Whill
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| Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2024 1:14 am Post subject: Re: Partial-Round Movement? |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | ...Thoughts? |
There's a bit of the premise missing from the OP. This house rule seems to be based on other house rules not explicitly stated here. Without this being stated, then we are running the danger of confusing house rules for RAW.
The proposal doesn't make sense with respect to RAW because a character or vehicle's movement in a round technically all takes place within the time of a single action (as unrealistic as that is). For RAW, it is is wholly unnecessary to consider the fractional portion of a round that a character is under cover because a targeted character is always at a specific location (behind cover or not) at any specific point in the round that they are attacked.
The missing premise to this proposed house rule is house-ruled movement that takes place over the course of the entire round (or part thereof but still more than the single action of RAW), in which other actions occur at various points concurrently. We have talked about this at length in other threads, which should at least be referenced here.
In my personal house-ruled movement system, movement is spread over the course of the entire round (or it indeed can be started later in the round and thus be "partial-round movement"). But this proposal would still be unnecessary because I "math-mind" estimate where a character is at any point anything could happen to it, so they will still either be behind cover or not at the point of any specific attack. Determining a specific location at the point a moving character is attacked also helps determines things like range of the attacker's weapon if a character moves through multiple ranges.
But I can see more of the appeal of something like the OP to GMs that have house-ruled spread-out movement and don't determine where a character is at any point they are attacked.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2024 12:27 am Post subject: |
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| cheshire wrote: | | I guess I'm trying to figure out if the effort is worth the payoff in terms of how often this specific scenario comes up in game. How often does everyone encounter a problem these mechanics would rectify? |
It's intended for combat scenarios where the character is trying to move as quickly as possible, but not trying to cover the full distance, only fraction of it. From a simulationist standpoint, it's for characters in combat trying to minimize their exposure as they move from cover to cover.
Under the RAW, a character with only 10 meters to travel would declare a Cruising Move to cover the distance in a single Move action. However, a Cruising Move is described as "standard walking speed", and it makes no sense for a character in a blaster fight to nonchalantly stroll across the intervening space. They should be running, in order to minimize their exposure, yet the RAW makes no allowance for this.
So, the idea here is to tack on the ability to move in short bursts of speed that allow characters to rapidly move shorter distances. This will still be the only move the character makes in the round, but because he's trying to limit his exposure to enemy fire (as opposed to trying to cover the maximum possible distance), he gets a Cover bonus on account of not being exposed for the entire round. The trade-off is that he still has to make the Movement skill roll to cover the distance, so while he would get a higher Cover bonus from moving All-Out, he still has the increased chance of a Movement Mishap due to higher Difficulty.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2024 1:20 am Post subject: Re: Partial-Round Movement? |
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| Whill wrote: | | The proposal doesn't make sense with respect to RAW because a character or vehicle's movement in a round technically all takes place within the time of a single action (as unrealistic as that is). |
Yes. The only way to resolve the RAW with "reality" is to assume that, while individual actions are taking place in sequence insofar as the rules are concerned, in "reality" they are happening near-simultaneously (in the case of full-round actions) or in very close sequence (for things like blaster shots and the like that don't take up the entire round).
This rule is intended to append onto the RAW Movement rules to allow for short sprints from one piece of cover to another, as opposed to traveling up to the maximum distance allowed for whatever level of Move they're using.
| Quote: | | Determining a specific location at the point a moving character is attacked also helps determines things like range of the attacker's weapon if a character moves through multiple ranges. |
That's what I'm going for. Rather than determining a specific location, I'm using an aggregate of the time they spent "covered" vs. "uncovered" to generate an effective Partial Cover Modifier, but based on what fraction of time in the round the character was exposed, not how much of their body is exposed.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2024 1:21 am Post subject: |
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| pakman wrote: | Just give a +1D cover bonus to represent the mixing of cover.
I would skip all the math and speeds or all of that. |
I like the idea of the PC having to decide whether they want to risk a Movement Mishap by traveling at a higher Speed in an attempt to get a better "Cover" bonus.
And I'm sure I can come up with a chart or something to decrunchify it.
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pakman
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| Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2024 4:51 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | pakman wrote: | Just give a +1D cover bonus to represent the mixing of cover.
I would skip all the math and speeds or all of that. |
I like the idea of the PC having to decide whether they want to risk a Movement Mishap by traveling at a higher Speed in an attempt to get a better "Cover" bonus.
And I'm sure I can come up with a chart or something to decrunchify it. |
Charts are indeed much faster than interpreting a paragraph of rules - which is why most rules have lots of them (mine do....).
However - anytime we can make a ruling at the table, and not have to look up a chart (GM screen space is at a premium!) in actual play - that adds value as well.
Also - the skill of moving from cover to cover - I would say part of that is inherent in the skill of dodging (calling it a skill as it can be improved upon) - and we already have rules for increasing a mishap for moving faster (call your many items of cover the character is wanting to move between was difficult terrain).
So - I would -
GM: "there are a lot of crates and pieces of equipment scattered across the hanger, but the ramp of your ship is on the other side 20m away...."
Player: "I want to move from cover to cover, but get there this round..."
Do we look up the chart of moving from cover to cover ...or
GM: "Ok, going to call that difficult terrain if you are going to try and run (2x speed), but if you make it I will give you a +1D cover bonus to your dodge. Bui if you fail, you won't make it in one round, or worse - you might trip over a fuel line...."
This gives the same effect, without need for a specific breakdown and another chart to look up. I do like all the situations your bring up - and their dissection and analysis - as always - it is a great thought exercise for rules consideration (going to mention in my movement and cover rules the described scenario - to give guidelines for consistency).
Also - as always - each group has to decide which rules require more structure and detail, and those which do not.
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cheshire
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| Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2024 8:59 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | cheshire wrote: | | I guess I'm trying to figure out if the effort is worth the payoff in terms of how often this specific scenario comes up in game. How often does everyone encounter a problem these mechanics would rectify? |
It's intended for combat scenarios where the character is trying to move as quickly as possible, but not trying to cover the full distance, only fraction of it. From a simulationist standpoint, it's for characters in combat trying to minimize their exposure as they move from cover to cover.
Under the RAW, a character with only 10 meters to travel would declare a Cruising Move to cover the distance in a single Move action. However, a Cruising Move is described as "standard walking speed", and it makes no sense for a character in a blaster fight to nonchalantly stroll across the intervening space. They should be running, in order to minimize their exposure, yet the RAW makes no allowance for this. |
This sounds like a thing I would handle more narratively within the scope of the scene, rather than being too bound by the general descriptions of the action. If the person is moving only 10 meters, then it's a single move action. If they're trying to avoid fire while doing it, then they also roll their dodge and then calculate the MAPs for two actions. In this case, the speed at which they move is relevant to the dodge, not the move since the speed is to avoid fire.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2024 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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| cheshire wrote: | | Under the RAW, a character with only 10 meters to travel would declare a Cruising Move to cover the distance in a single Move action. However, a Cruising Move is described as "standard This sounds like a thing I would handle more narratively within the scope of the scene, rather than being too bound by the general descriptions of the action. If the person is moving only 10 meters, then it's a single move action. If they're trying to avoid fire while doing it, then they also roll their dodge and then calculate the MAPs for two actions. In this case, the speed at which they move is relevant to the dodge, not the move since the speed is to avoid fire. |
This answer bothered me, but it took a while to really explain why. While your answer is fine w/r/t the RAW, it also highlights two issues I have with the RAW: 1) it relies too heavily on the narrative skills of the GM, and 2) it doesn’t simulate the action as seen on screen.
As written, the different Move Speeds are described using different paces (slow walk, normal walk, jogging, etc), and are designed to represent a character moving at that pace over the course of an entire round. There is no provision for characters moving at that pace for portions of a round (as would be the case in combat), which is what this rule is intended to represent.
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Whill
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| Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2024 9:06 pm Post subject: Movement |
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Confusion persists about official movement rules. Everyone, please do not skip past this post.
| Quote: | | As written, the different Move Speeds are described using different paces (slow walk, normal walk, jogging, etc), and are designed to represent a character moving at that pace over the course of an entire round. There is no provision for characters moving at that pace for portions of a round (as would be the case in combat), which is what this rule is intended to represent. |
As written, the 2eR&E rules were not designed/intended to represent a character moving at that pace over the course of an entire round. RAW is quite explicit that all movement a character or vehicle makes in a round takes place within the space of a single action in the round. It could be the first, second, third, whatever action for that character/vehicle.
The original 2e movement (Blue Vader) also had movement occur within the space of actions, but instead of speeds you could move a single "move" per action (the move stat), moving up to a max of four times in a round (4 move actions).
Neither version is that realistic.
R&E is very unrealistic as is crams a character/vehicle's movement in a round, at any speed, into the space of a single action in that round. Blue Vader 2e is slightly more realistic than R&E in that BV does spread the total movement over the course of the round more if you have more than one move action in the round. If one character on either side has more than four actions, then the total movement of a the max four moves still couldn't really be said to take place over the course of the entire round.
Blue Vader requires a roll for each movement action, which means a character could be rolling up to four times for their total movement in a round, which means a MAP for each "move" after the character's first action and increased chances to flub a roll and wipe out.
In R&E, speeds were added and movement was condensed to the space of a single action per round to (1) require less rolls, (2) not nickel and dime for MAPs, and (3) not have extra chances for a bad roll to ruin the movement attempt, at the further expense of realism.
For both, the end result is the intended total distance intended to move that round (if rolls were successful). Thinking of either one of these movement systems as representing continuous movement concurrent to other actions (whether all or part of the round) is a player narrative overlay not actually represented in the rules themselves.
The premise of this thread, the concept of movement game-mechanically taking place over the course of an entire round is a house rule in of itself, and thus this thread's concept of "partial movement" is a house rule based on another house ruled premise. Some reminders about forum guidelines:
• If you wish to discuss or propose modifications to official rules, please review, try to understand, and reference the official rules you are modifying first.
• Do not attempt to pass off anyone's house rules as RAW.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2024 2:00 am Post subject: Re: Movement |
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All quotes are from SWRPG 2R&E, pgs. 101-102, with underlines emphasis mine.
| Whill wrote: | | the end result is the intended total distance intended to move that round (if rolls were successful). Thinking of either one of these movement systems as representing continuous movement concurrent to other actions (whether all or part of the round) is a player narrative overlay not actually represented in the rules themselves. |
I disagree."Every character and creature has a Move score: it's how many meters per round the character moves while walking"
"While your character can only move once per round, you can pick one of four speeds."
"Cautious Movement: This is a slow walk for a character."
"Cruising Movement: Cruising movement is walking speed for a character."
"High Speed: High speed movement is running for a character."
"All-Out: All-out movement is running at all-out speed for a character."
"Partial Moves. After picking a "move speed" (cautious, cruising, high speed or all-out speed"), a character can move anywhere between half and her full move speed."
If WEG did not intend for the RAW Movement rules to represent a character moving at that pace for an entire round, they should have chosen different words. The fact that they occur at a specific point in the action sequence dictated by the RAW doesn't change WEG's descriptive terminology. It's also compounded by the Acceleration / Deceleration rule:"Acceleration and Deceleration. Characters may increase or decrease their movement speed up to two levels per round." Taken in combination with the four Move Speeds, this creates circumstances where a Move in one round automatically carries over into a minimum Move in the following round. Specifically, a character traveling at All-Out (assuming a Move of 10 for the sake of this example) must not only travel a minimum of 20 meters (1/2 of 40) this round, they must make a minimum 5 meter Move in the following round (1/2 of a Cruising Move of 10 meters, which is two levels below All-Out). While in the sequence of a combat round, this occurs at a specific turn, the character does not cover 40 meters in the blink of an eye, jerk to a stop for the remainder of the round, then cautiously walk forward five meters during his second action in the following round.
At best, the RAW is ambiguously worded. My opinion, however, based on the terminology used and how the rules are structured, is that the RAW is intended to represent full-round movement over distance, and is poorly suited for partial-round movement, as well as combination with other actions (such as movement-to-cover and charging attacks). While it has been used as such, that doesn't make it well suited to it. Hence, this house rule.
| Quote: | The premise of this thread, the concept of movement game-mechanically taking place over the course of an entire round is a house rule in of itself, and thus this thread's concept of "partial movement" is a house rule based on another house ruled premise. Some reminders about forum guidelines:
• If you wish to discuss or propose modifications to official rules, please review, try to understand, and reference the official rules you are modifying first.
• Do not attempt to pass off anyone's house rules as RAW. |
Thus why I placed this house rule in the House Rule section. At no point have I implied my interpretation of the RAW is anything other than my opinion.
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Whill
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| Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2024 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for that referential post with quotes from R&E. I love posts like this.
I'm not disputing that the end result of the game mechanics aren't being used to ambiguously represent continuous movement over the course of a round, but I think you are still missing my point.
Those statements you quoted are cherry picked (but one actually helps make my point). For starters, review the action rules on R&E p.78 (Chapter Three), especially:
| Quote: | | Each action occurs as it is rolled – a split-second after any actions that have already been rolled and a split-second before the next action that's rolled. |
Here are movement rules quotes from R&E Chapters Six and Seven (and since the original text uses italics for emphasis, I'll use bold for my own emphasis):
| On p.101 (Character Movement), the authors of R&E wrote: | | Moving is an action, just like firing a blaster or dodging an attack. A character can move once per round... Movement works like any other action. |
This is not ambiguous. Movement game mechanically happens in the space of an action like any other action within a round.
| On p.102 (Cruising Movement Example), the authors of R&E wrote: | | She can automatically walk 10 meters without making a Dexterity roll, but it's an action. Firing her blaster is a second action... |
Not having to roll is because it was only in Moderate terrain, but it still counts an action. Game mechanically, actions are sequenced within a round. See R&E p.78. For each action 'segment' in a round (1st actions, 2nd actions, 3rd actions, etc.) a player on their turn in that segment has to declare which action they will roll for, and all actions occur as they are rolled in R&E. In the above example, the player does movement on one action and firing the blaster on another action, and the player would decide which one they would do on their 1st action and which one they would do on their 2nd action. In this case, the blaster shot was chosen to occur after the movement is completed. Mechanically.
| On p.106, the authors of R&E wrote: | | Vehicle movement works much in the same way as character movement... Moving is an action, just like firing a blaster or dodging. A vehicle can move once per round... |
Vehicle movement works like characters.
| On p.106-107 (Cruising Movement Example), the authors of R&E wrote: | | She can automatically pilot her speeder at cruising speed, but it's an action. Firing the autocannon is a second action... |
Vehicle movement actions are sequenced, and this example is just like moving cruising speed (in Very Easy through Moderate terrain) for characters.
| On p.123, the authors of R&E wrote: | | Starship movement works just like vehicle movement... Moving is an action, just like firing a blaster or dodging. A ship can move once per round... |
Spaceship movement works just like vehicles.
| On p.123 (Cruising Movement Example), the authors of R&E wrote: | | She can automatically fly the ship at cruising speed, but it's an action. Firing the double laser cannon is a second action... |
Spaceship movement actions are sequenced, and this example is just like moving cruising speed (in Very Easy through Moderate terrain) for vehicles and characters.
All-Out speed may seem more game mechanically ambiguous because it is the only "action" allowed by the character rolling the movement action that round. However the All-Out movement action would be rolled in the '1st action' segment of the round along with all other 'only-one' actions, and thus the movement action would still technically be sequenced within the round by initiative, and 2nd actions and 3rd actions by other characters would game mechanically occur after the All-Out movement action was completed.
The other context I attempted to reference previously was noting how R&E movement evolved from Blue Vader movement. This helps the understanding of RAW mechanics. Neither version of 2e movement is very realistic, but Blue Vader was a bit more realistic because it actually spread a total intended movement out over multiple actions within a round (for 2 or more "moves"). Per Bill Smith, very intentional changes were made in R&E to reduce dice rolling for movement actions thereby simplifying game play, but at the further expense of realism: By introducing speeds and cramming all movement of a round into a single action within a round. This didn't change how actions work.
"Movement works like any other action" is quite explicit. Game mechanically, the rules being discussed are not ambiguous. A movement action takes place within a single action of a round for any moving character, vehicle or ship. (Other wording that may seem to ambiguously suggest movement is game-mechanically continuous throughout the round may be there simply because that is the intended 'mind's eye' outcome that the game is attempting to simulate, something that should be a given to all game authors and most players of roleplaying games who might be reading these rules.)
My forum guidelines references were not for the sake of the house rules discussed here, but rather to the house rules premise that officially, movement game mechanically occurs over the course of the entire round. House rules are fan game mechanics to alter official game mechanics. House rules are often proposed for observed deficiencies in official rules, which was the stated reason here. The specific observed deficiency is not accurate, what I was calling out. But I think with this discussion, now everyone reading this can clearly understand what RAW intended, your "interpretation", and the house-ruled premise being further house-ruled here.
The movement rules are deficient for other reasons. I think we agree that movement being continuous over the course of a round is realistic, and some of us are concerned about it enough to want the game mechanics to actually incorporate that.
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