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worfbacca
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 Posted: Thu Feb 29, 2024 12:26 pm Post subject: Absorb/dissipate energy and sonic weapons |
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Can this force power be used with sonic weapons? We see sonic weapons used against he Jedi at the battle of Geonosis and we can see lightsabers can’t parry it and we see Jedi get knocked back…
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Thu Feb 29, 2024 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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I’d allow it, but I’d also allow Absorb/Dissipate to be used against kinetic attacks, so my position may be on the extreme end of the bell curve.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Thu Feb 29, 2024 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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Based purely ON that battle on Genosis, i say No, sonic weaponry couldn't be absorbed...
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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| Posted: Thu Feb 29, 2024 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Based purely ON that battle on Genosis, i say No, sonic weaponry couldn't be absorbed... |
The alternate takeaway from that scene could be that it can be absorbed, but at a high Difficulty, which the Jedi in question didn’t roll high enough to do. Recall that in RotS, even Yoda (who was the galactic champion of the Absorb/Dissipate Olympics) still got zapped by Sidious in the Senate Office fight.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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fogger1138
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 25 Feb 2021
Posts: 100
Location: Maine
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| Posted: Thu Feb 29, 2024 6:55 pm Post subject: Re: Absorb/dissipate energy and sonic weapons |
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| worfbacca wrote: | | Can this force power be used with sonic weapons? We see sonic weapons used against he Jedi at the battle of Geonosis and we can see lightsabers can’t parry it and we see Jedi get knocked back… |
Personally, no: sonics should be a purely kinetic attack (sound is vibration through a medium, in most cases air) with no energy packet to absorb.
YMMV though, Star Wars has a lot of physics handwaviness going on. |
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pakman
Commander
Joined: 20 Jul 2021
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| Posted: Thu Feb 29, 2024 7:45 pm Post subject: Re: Absorb/dissipate energy and sonic weapons |
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| worfbacca wrote: | | Can this force power be used with sonic weapons? We see sonic weapons used against he Jedi at the battle of Geonosis and we can see lightsabers can’t parry it and we see Jedi get knocked back… |
I would say no - for both fluff, physics and overall - game balance.
force users, while pathetically weak at lower levels of skill - get insanely powerful later on.
So much so, that some fools (like me) try to overhaul the force system....
IMHO.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2024 1:06 am Post subject: |
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We’ve had similar discussions here and here. Most of the points I would make in support of using Absorb/Dissipate against all forms of energy can be found there.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2024 1:28 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | Based purely ON that battle on Genosis, i say No, sonic weaponry couldn't be absorbed... |
The alternate takeaway from that scene could be that it can be absorbed, but at a high Difficulty, which the Jedi in question didn’t roll high enough to do. Recall that in RotS, even Yoda (who was the galactic champion of the Absorb/Dissipate Olympics) still got zapped by Sidious in the Senate Office fight. |
I always took that as Yoda got taken by surprise..
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2024 2:44 pm Post subject: Re: Absorb/dissipate energy and sonic weapons |
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| worfbacca wrote: | | Can this force power be used with sonic weapons? We see sonic weapons used against he Jedi at the battle of Geonosis and we can see lightsabers can’t parry it and we see Jedi get knocked back… |
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | I’d allow it, but I’d also allow Absorb/Dissipate to be used against kinetic attacks, so my position may be on the extreme end of the bell curve. |
| garhkal wrote: | | Based purely ON that battle on Genosis, i say No, sonic weaponry couldn't be absorbed... |
| fogger1138 wrote: | Personally, no: sonics should be a purely kinetic attack (sound is vibration through a medium, in most cases air) with no energy packet to absorb.
YMMV though, Star Wars has a lot of physics handwaviness going on. |
This raises the interesting question of the division between energy damage and physical damage. CRM is not wrong in that both contain "energy" so it isn't much of an issue of handwaving physics. Blasters shoot energetic particles but there are categorized as energy weapons. So it seems to me that "physical damage" must include a certain level of physicality above particles. Sound is kinetic energy from molecules in the medium bouncing off of each other, so my first instinct would probably be to classify sonic weapons as energy weapons that can't be lightsaber-deflected.
| pakman wrote: | I would say no - for both fluff, physics and overall - game balance.
force users, while pathetically weak at lower levels of skill - get insanely powerful later on.
So much so, that some fools (like me) try to overhaul the force system... |
Thanks for bringing in a game balance perspective.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2024 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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I guess I just don't see the power balance issue. To successfully use this power to soak an attack, you have to beat Moderate Difficulty plus the attack's Damage roll, on top of having to know the attack's coming. That's in addition to stacking MAPs for whatever else is going on. W/r/t garhkal's point about the sonic cannon at the arena battle in AotC, that was basically portable artillery (likely Walker or Starfighter scale) being used against Character-Scale targets. They would've had to soak an additional 4D or 6D of Damage on top of the above.
So, yes, if this power were applied to all forms of energy (including kinetic), it would make the user nigh-invulnerable, but only so long as they are able to roll high enough to use it successfully. And that's the real kicker.
Personally, I like incorporating aspects of modern Kung Fu movie tropes into Jedi/Sith, where they can catch bullets or run on water (recall that Luke actually walked on molten lava in Jedi Search, so it's not technically outside the bounds of canon). In this case, the Shaolin technique known as Iron Shirt would be applicable, with the Force replacing Chi.
Just some thoughts.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2024 2:09 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | I guess I just don't see the power balance issue. To successfully use this power to soak an attack, you have to beat Moderate Difficulty plus the attack's Damage roll, on top of having to know the attack's coming. That's in addition to stacking MAPs for whatever else is going on. W/r/t garhkal's point about the sonic cannon at the arena battle in AotC, that was basically portable artillery (likely Walker or Starfighter scale) being used against Character-Scale targets. They would've had to soak an additional 4D or 6D of Damage on top of the above. |
BUT wouldn't walker scale (or even speeder) have had a HARDER time due to scale differences, in HITTING them??
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2024 8:57 am Post subject: |
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In the scene, it didn’t hit them; it hit the ground near them and sent them flying through the air. The absence of a blast radius effect rule for heavier weapons is a glaring omission from the RAW.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2024 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | In the scene, it didn’t hit them; it hit the ground near them and sent them flying through the air. The absence of a blast radius effect rule for heavier weapons is a glaring omission from the RAW. |
Agreed. Heck, even walker, fighter and cap ship weapons, have no 'blast zones'..
GRRRR!
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KageRyu
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| Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2024 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | CRMcNeill wrote: | | In the scene, it didn’t hit them; it hit the ground near them and sent them flying through the air. The absence of a blast radius effect rule for heavier weapons is a glaring omission from the RAW. |
Agreed. Heck, even walker, fighter and cap ship weapons, have no 'blast zones'..
GRRRR! |
A quick and easy rule of thumb might be to give such weapons a "radius" equal to 1m per half the modded Die Code (i.e. Die Code + Scale Modifier). IIRC Starfighter scale is 6D? so this would give a Tie Fighter blast a 5.5m Blast. Though caution should be used as this could be used to supersede the need to hit directly.
This is off the cuff. I had artillery and improved scaled combat rules I had been working on, but as with so much of my material, I do not know where they are currently.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2024 1:24 am Post subject: |
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I know me and CRM was talking about blast radi for weapons a long time ago, re my artillery... Perhaps that could be added for these sorts of weaponry.
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