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When Do Skill Ratings Become Unwieldy?
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Stan Shinn
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2023 5:13 pm    Post subject: When Do Skill Ratings Become Unwieldy? Reply with quote

As a GM, what’s the highest die code rating for peak skills your players can get to before it becomes unwieldy? 8D as a peak skill maybe? Something higher?

I'm thinking about long-running campaigns (50-100 games) and I want to be mindful of awarding XP and how fast characters level, so we don't get into those higher dice code ratings where things are swingy, PCs seem invulnerable, or dice rolling take way too long.
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thedemonapostle
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2023 12:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

my groups never had any skill die caps. it was generally understood in my groups that the higher your skill ratings the more widely known you were, for better or for worse.

several gm's would throw lesser npc's at the combat based pc's with the idea that small time gangsters or similar were looking to make a name for themselves by taking out well known personalities.

there was always someone willing to use their skills to force someone very skilled in another skill(s) to do their bidding.

ive played some awesome games where the gm's whole purpose was to outmaneuver the highly skilled pc's
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2023 2:20 am    Post subject: Re: When Do Skill Ratings Become Unwieldy? Reply with quote

Stan Shinn wrote:
As a GM, what’s the highest die code rating for peak skills your players can get to before it becomes unwieldy? 8D as a peak skill maybe? Something higher?

I'm thinking about long-running campaigns (50-100 games) and I want to be mindful of awarding XP and how fast characters level, so we don't get into those higher dice code ratings where things are swingy, PCs seem invulnerable, or dice rolling take way too long.


IF you go by the older rules, where each 'adventure' (usually 2-4 game sessions) is worth anywhere from 1-5 cp, then after 100 or so games, that SHOULDN'T BE that many CP awarded.. Where as if you treat EACH GAME session, itself as worth the 1-5cp award for an "Adventure", then yea, you can get up there in # of die in peoples pools..

That said i've had games where due to specialty and fire control we had gunners in ships with 10-12d, and enemies with 9-10d shooting back.. SO i don't see that as unwieldly YET..

BUT ADD IN someone popping a FP, and it can be.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2023 4:25 am    Post subject: Re: When Do Skill Ratings Become Unwieldy? Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
IF you go by the older rules, where each 'adventure' (usually 2-4 game sessions) is worth anywhere from 1-5 cp

I don't know what "the older rules" are that you are referencing. 1e core p.99 (the oldest rule) says generally 3-10 skill points. Blue Vader (p.46) and R&E (p.169) both say generally 3-15 CPs.

thedemonapostle wrote:
my groups never had any skill die caps.

I have never placed a limit on skill dice values, but I never had to...

Stan Shinn wrote:
As a GM, what’s the highest die code rating for peak skills your players can get to before it becomes unwieldy? 8D as a peak skill maybe? Something higher?

I'm thinking about long-running campaigns (50-100 games) and I want to be mindful of awarding XP and how fast characters level, so we don't get into those higher dice code ratings where things are swingy, PCs seem invulnerable, or dice rolling take way too long.

I don't think any PCs in my campaigns ever had more than 8D in any skill. Once they got a couple signature skills to that level, the players then focused on other skills. One thing you can do is make other skills important in the game. My PCs learned that their PCs will not always be able to count on the specialties of their teammates so it was best to not over focus. And there are other ways to prevent what you want to avoid. You can also give lower CP rewards.
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pakman
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2023 2:33 pm    Post subject: Re: When Do Skill Ratings Become Unwieldy? Reply with quote

TLDR: Yes, 8D gets tricky, and I limit to XP awards at the end of an adventure, about 12-14 points...

LONGER VERSION:
Before I start ...let me say..

This is a highly subjective topic - and many folks may have very differing views - as wide ranging as the groups themselves.
The experiences and opinions of a group that playing infrequently or only for a short game (less than a year or two) is going to be different than a group that plays regularly for many years...

Stan Shinn wrote:
As a GM, what’s the highest die code rating for peak skills your players can get to before it becomes unwieldy? 8D as a peak skill maybe? Something higher?

In my experience 8d is where things get a bit messy - both mechanics and story wise.

Force users no longer have challenges activating powers at this level, and some are incredibly powerful.
Non force users are just doing tons of actions - which for some gruops - might be exactly what they want.

For my group - that is FUN - but it started to break down a bit in the idea of finding equally skilled foes - especially based on the premise of how rare 8D (or 9 or 10) is supposed to be.

According to the rules 8D is among the best on a planet - and for me - that starts to break immersion when story wise you are having to constantly throw what would in universe would be considered super elite for what in game is that night's random encounter #2.

Again - some folks have very different views

Stan Shinn wrote:

I'm thinking about long-running campaigns (50-100 games) and I want to be mindful of awarding XP and how fast characters level, so we don't get into those higher dice code ratings where things are swingy, PCs seem invulnerable, or dice rolling take way too long.

Again, here, views vary widely - most of my group's campaigns last years (I think the shortest was 2 years?) but I have been playing a version of Star Wars RPG on and off for literally decades (not rare in this forum...).

My group tends to longer games (current game is about 18 months in and story wise, they are about 40% through the main campaign plot).
They are ok with a slower advance - each adventure is about 4-7 sessions, and XP is awarded at the end of the Adventure, at a bout 2XP per session (this can vary). Due to thes various changes (and the story) I think we shuld wrap up around 10D in player skill or so....

The players like this as they can get used to new things, but character creation is frequent enough they don't feel stagnant.
Our current schedule is two sessions a month (we are all busy working adults - this is what works for us).

Wait...XP?
Don't you mean CP?

Yes, and No.

One of the house rules for our game is we segregate the points used for character advancement from those spent for bonuses in game sessions. our terms;

XP - Experience points - what a character gets between adventures to spend on improving a character.
Hero Dice - a set of dice which are spent just like CP, refreshed each session, and given based on player contribution to the game (good role playing, heroic or fun actions, contributing humor (as opposed to distracting humor) etc.).

This works for our gruop, others may not.
(I have seen many house rules here that split XP and CP - although the details vary).

So, because my players don't have to spend CP on die rolls - they get a bit less for character advancement.
(again, about 12-14 per adventure).

Finally - I have also added more advanced skills (kind of like ability trees - similar to how martial arts was suggested in 2.5, and other similar concepts in later versions of d6) - so non force users have other options to spend points on - this slightly slows the skill advancement a bit - as they have more things to spend on.

(I have been working on these advanced skills for a long time - almost done....).

Finally...
As stated - other groups are going to have different views - and that is ok.

Heck - I played one mini-campaign over a gaming weekend where we had advancement after each adventure - but that was a very different beast than a long time game with invested rolplayers looking for a long story arc campaign.

No one needs to defend their view or critique another - we all run the game that works for us with different goals and groups.

Best of luck in whatever you decide to do.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2023 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To me the "dice cap" if we will is based on how the GM (and player group) decides on what task is "how" difficult.

an easy task is usually in the difficulty range of 3-7 and some examiles are given.
here you do not need a lot of dice and will do fairly well with 3D or 4D.

However we all value diffently the difficulties of the actions taken by players.

Some tables will say that the basic "flying" of a any starship is no more than a moderately difficult taks.... making it in the 10-15 range of difficulty. still someone with a 3D or 4 D will do ok but 5D and 6D will now be more realistic
as experience grows.

Now on another table, a different group of players and GM may decide that the above task of "basic flyong" is diffuclt to do, now we MUST have a minimum og 3D to 4D to even attemt the task. with a 5D or 6D beng a new "normal" in order to pull things off.

This is what increases the dice or dice pool, much more than the #D ice in the individual skill/attribute.

Anyone with 4D will have huge problems rolling 3
anyone with 8D will have the same difficulty rolling a 7

So how we define difficulties and what tasks should require rolls at all and allowing "negative" rolls is what to me determines the cap.

I will say that at a table where flying a fighter is a "heroic level" task then 12D in piloting is reasobale and mybe a little "low" as to the number of dice
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2023 4:58 pm    Post subject: Re: When Do Skill Ratings Become Unwieldy? Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
garhkal wrote:
IF you go by the older rules, where each 'adventure' (usually 2-4 game sessions) is worth anywhere from 1-5 cp

I don't know what "the older rules" are that you are referencing. 1e core p.99 (the oldest rule) says generally 3-10 skill points. Blue Vader (p.46) and R&E (p.169) both say generally 3-15 CPs.


Strange, i thought my reading of that, had the xp split up between sessions, to where a full 'adventure' was worth 3-15, nbut that was between 3-5 sessions or such..
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2023 8:06 pm    Post subject: Re: When Do Skill Ratings Become Unwieldy? Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Whill wrote:
garhkal wrote:
IF you go by the older rules, where each 'adventure' (usually 2-4 game sessions) is worth anywhere from 1-5 cp

I don't know what "the older rules" are that you are referencing. 1e core p.99 (the oldest rule) says generally 3-10 skill points. Blue Vader (p.46) and R&E (p.169) both say generally 3-15 CPs.

Strange, i thought my reading of that, had the xp split up between sessions, to where a full 'adventure' was worth 3-15, nbut that was between 3-5 sessions or such..

The core rules don't break down reward points per session, and they are usually awarded at the end of adventures anyway. Maybe you are thinking of Sparks standards.

As far as how many sessions an adventure is, that depends on the length of the adventure and also the length of the sessions. When I was young I used to run epic all night sessions that were 8 hours +, and we sometimes finished published adventures in one session.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2023 3:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It wasn't sparks, as that's generally 5-7 CP a module, each played in a 3.5 hr session. Which i've always seen as WAY more than should be awarded..
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2023 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
It wasn't sparks, as that's generally 5-7 CP a module, each played in a 3.5 hr session. Which i've always seen as WAY more than should be awarded..

Especially since there are longtime characters with hundreds of CPs built into their character advancements.
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Stan Shinn
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2023 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for everyone's feedback!

Here's a house rule I'm considering to minimize getting skills in the 8D or higher range.

If your skill die is 1-6D, increase any skill by one pip by spending CP equal to its current number of dice.

If your skill die is 7D or higher, increase any skill by one pip by spending CP equal to TWICE the current number of dice.

So, leveling up skills will be much harder once you reach the 7D+ tier. I'd then made some similar adjustments to leveling up attributes.

You still have the freedom to min-max your character but if you do (pouring all of your CP into 2 or 3 skills), you'll noticeably lag in most skills compared to the other players who spend CP on lower ranked skills.

Thoughts?
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2023 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
garhkal wrote:
It wasn't sparks, as that's generally 5-7 CP a module, each played in a 3.5 hr session. Which i've always seen as WAY more than should be awarded..

Especially since there are longtime characters with hundreds of CPs built into their character advancements.


That's one reason, why in the past 3 cons, i've lessened my involvement in that group, and focused on running Heroes of Aturi for the X-wing minis game.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2024 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

13D is probably the maximum I would allow.

I like 8D, when players roll that high, I don't have to consult rulebooks as much for bonuses and penalties. I just have to mind opposed rolls and fumbles (critical failures). This may be the only RPG system that gets easier to adjudicate as players advance.

The trick is finding creative ways of getting those players to burn Character Points and Force Points, in play, and not on boosting skills. I learned a trick from the FATE RPG. If a player rolls bad, ask them if they want to spend Character Points AFTER the roll not before. The result is the players burn more CPs and skill advancement is slower. This benefits long-term campaigns a great deal.

I also grandfathered and expanded the 1 Force Point = 3 Character Points rule from Second Edition. I allow my players to make change whenever they want. Need a FP and have none? Spend 3 CP as a FP. Don't want to spend a whole FP, break it up and spend a CP with 2 CP left over. Its like a casino get your players to waste CPs and FPs, its more fun and it ultimately slows down advancement.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2024 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FVBonura wrote:
I also grandfathered and expanded the 1 Force Point = 3 Character Points rule from Second Edition. I allow my players to make change whenever they want. Need a FP and have none? Spend 3 CP as a FP. Don't want to spend a whole FP, break it up and spend a CP with 2 CP left over. Its like a casino get your players to waste CPs and FPs, its more fun and it ultimately slows down advancement.


Wait, the "what" rule? I don't remember this one.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2024 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fogger1138 wrote:
FVBonura wrote:
I also grandfathered and expanded the 1 Force Point = 3 Character Points rule from Second Edition. I allow my players to make change whenever they want. Need a FP and have none? Spend 3 CP as a FP. Don't want to spend a whole FP, break it up and spend a CP with 2 CP left over. Its like a casino get your players to waste CPs and FPs, its more fun and it ultimately slows down advancement.


Wait, the "what" rule? I don't remember this one.


If you were non force senstitive, And earned a bonus force point that put you above 5, you could 'cash' the extra in for 3cp. He's making a HR it seems, to do the opposite (so if you ever ran out of force points, you can cash in excess CP IF you have them) to get a FP..
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