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Dr. Bidlo Commander
Joined: 24 Nov 2021 Posts: 440 Location: Arizona, USA
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Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2023 4:21 pm Post subject: Ownership of dice rolls |
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I have been thinking about the implications of players rolling dice and wanted to get the thoughts from the community. Even with GM determined difficulties, players generally know if they rolled high enough to succeed in a test or not - especially if they roll a 1 on the wild die. In combat, this is no problem because you either hit or you don't (or damage/don't damage). However, when it comes to the roleplaying skills, I have often found that players rolling their dice gives them more information than their characters would know and often they react in a way that is at least influenced by their information about the roll. Sure, you can say that is just bad roleplaying, but it is hard to do something with your character when you know it will be bad.
For example: you want to try to walk on a frozen lake and try to see if it is stable. You take a skill test (whatever skill that would be) and roll really poorly and get a 1 on your wild die. When the GM says "It is perfectly safe and stable" would you just run out on that ice or would you take an extra cautious approach?
So, I ask everyone's thoughts on the GM rolling on behalf of players in some situations. Or as an alternative, maybe the GM just rolls the wild die on the player's behalf in some situations. I am not advocating not having the players roll at all - what fun would that be?
Thoughts? |
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DougRed4 Rear Admiral
Joined: 18 Jan 2013 Posts: 2286 Location: Seattle, WA
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Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2023 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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Some games have some form of meta currency, and Character Points are this in 2R&E.
Maybe rolling a 1 on the Wild Die is simply that moment where you start to step out on the ice and notice that it cracks a bit. Or when you roll a 6 it's when you get the impression that it is quite stable. _________________ Currently Running: Villains & Vigilantes (a 32-year-old campaign with multiple groups) and D6 Star Wars; mostly on hiatus are Adventures in Middle-earth and Delta Green |
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pakman Commander
Joined: 20 Jul 2021 Posts: 441
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Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2023 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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It would have to be incredibly rare situation where I would roll for a player - like maybe only a secret check they are not supposed to know about.
I think I am lucky that my players are mature enough to role play getting a 1.
Now, on the bad ice thing - I would say "you think it is safe....".
And I would find it reasonable that a player would say "well, then we advance cautiously...".
Forcing them to "run on to the ice...." seems a bit....much.
Players might feel penalized too much for the 1 - after all, it IS 1 in six chance. _________________ SW Fan, Gamer, Comic, Corporate nerd.
Working on massive House Rules document - pretty much a new book. Will post soon.... |
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Dr. Bidlo Commander
Joined: 24 Nov 2021 Posts: 440 Location: Arizona, USA
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Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2023 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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Those are good suggestions. Thanks. |
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Whill Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008 Posts: 10435 Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2023 10:58 pm Post subject: |
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I rarely roll for players, and when I do it is mostly for Perception rolls to see if they passively notice something the players wouldn't otherwise know is there. And other times I just roll dice behind the GM screen for no reason at all.
In general, preventing players from knowing any meta-knowledge is pointless. Do players not know all sorts of Star Wars knowledge that their characters wouldn't know? Do players never get a bird's eye view of an area from a top-down-looking 2D map when really their PC would only have the POV of their character? Don't players know the stats for things? Can't players see skill dice codes on other PCs' character sheets? Does the GM not call out to the group a PC wound's status? (In-universe, how would a character instantly know whether their party member is incapacitated, mortally wounded, or dead?)
There is a certain amount of meta-gaming built into the game, and it is ok. Players are pretending to be a fictional character in a fictional universe toward the goal of co-creating entertaining stories for everyone at the table. Part of the fun is taking chances and rolling dice. I'm ok with players having a better look at the odds of something that their character realistically wouldn't quite have in-universe. It's a game. _________________ *
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garhkal Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 14213 Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2023 2:19 am Post subject: Re: Ownership of dice rolls |
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Dr. Bidlo wrote: | I have been thinking about the implications of players rolling dice and wanted to get the thoughts from the community. Even with GM determined difficulties, players generally know if they rolled high enough to succeed in a test or not - especially if they roll a 1 on the wild die. In combat, this is no problem because you either hit or you don't (or damage/don't damage). However, when it comes to the roleplaying skills, I have often found that players rolling their dice gives them more information than their characters would know and often they react in a way that is at least influenced by their information about the roll. Sure, you can say that is just bad roleplaying, but it is hard to do something with your character when you know it will be bad.
For example: you want to try to walk on a frozen lake and try to see if it is stable. You take a skill test (whatever skill that would be) and roll really poorly and get a 1 on your wild die. When the GM says "It is perfectly safe and stable" would you just run out on that ice or would you take an extra cautious approach?
So, I ask everyone's thoughts on the GM rolling on behalf of players in some situations. Or as an alternative, maybe the GM just rolls the wild die on the player's behalf in some situations. I am not advocating not having the players roll at all - what fun would that be?
Thoughts? |
Other game systems have some rolls, being done BY the DM, and letting the players know the results in ways that make them unsure of "did i fail, or is it that i succeeded but nothing was there to XYZ", such as with ADND and secret door checks/find traps.. Did they just miss, or were none there??
perhaps in situations like that, the DM could do the same, and roll, for the player in secret, then let him know the results. _________________ Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
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Dr. Bidlo Commander
Joined: 24 Nov 2021 Posts: 440 Location: Arizona, USA
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Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2023 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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Whill wrote: | I rarely roll for players, and when I do it is mostly for Perception rolls to see if they passively notice something the players wouldn't otherwise know is there. And other times I just roll dice behind the GM screen for no reason at all.
In general, preventing players from knowing any meta-knowledge is pointless. Do players not know all sorts of Star Wars knowledge that their characters wouldn't know? Do players never get a bird's eye view of an area from a top-down-looking 2D map when really their PC would only have the POV of their character? Don't players know the stats for things? Can't players see skill dice codes on other PCs' character sheets? Does the GM not call out to the group a PC wound's status? (In-universe, how would a character instantly know whether their party member is incapacitated, mortally wounded, or dead?)
There is a certain amount of meta-gaming built into the game, and it is ok. Players are pretending to be a fictional character in a fictional universe toward the goal of co-creating entertaining stories for everyone at the table. Part of the fun is taking chances and rolling dice. I'm ok with players having a better look at the odds of something that their character realistically wouldn't quite have in-universe. It's a game. |
You are describing most games I am sure. However, I happen to be fortunate enough right now to have a group that generally likes Star Wars but are not super fans, do not really know the game mechanics outside of what I have taught them, and are genuinely surprised when the encounter new TIE variants, aliens, and Star Wars tech. I threw a Defel at them on a large cargo ship they were inspecting. It was picking their troops off one by one and they were seriously wondering if it was a ghost or demon of some kind. Every group I have gamed with in the past would have identified it as a defel immediately. The true wonder and terror it wrough was a joy for me as GM and for the players...
So, I guess I was just trying to find ways to continue that sense of the unknown as much as possible. I remember when I was first introduced to the game in 1st Edition. I had a wookie and I was told when to roll dice, but had no idea what the difficulties were or if I should even try what I was doing. It was great! Never tell me the odds! |
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FVBonura Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 24 Nov 2005 Posts: 137 Location: Central PA
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Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2024 10:56 am Post subject: |
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I punish metagaming by taking Character Points from the offending Player. However if the Player proceeds, and roleplays well, even if said roleplaying actions were detrimental to the Character, I award Character Points for good roleplaying and/or forwarding the story.
I revoke and award CPs exactly at the time of the accomplishment/crime, not at the end of the session, and I seldom ever give more than one CP at a time. You have to blow my mind to earn 2 CPs and you have to perform the best move of the campaign to earn 3 CPs. I find immediate punishment or reward to help curb bad behavior and promote good player behavior significantly. _________________ Star Wars Deckplans Alliance
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garhkal Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 14213 Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2024 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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FVBonura wrote: | I punish metagaming by taking Character Points from the offending Player. However if the Player proceeds, and roleplays well, even if said roleplaying actions were detrimental to the Character, I award Character Points for good roleplaying and/or forwarding the story.
I revoke and award CPs exactly at the time of the accomplishment/crime, not at the end of the session, and I seldom ever give more than one CP at a time. You have to blow my mind to earn 2 CPs and you have to perform the best move of the campaign to earn 3 CPs. I find immediate punishment or reward to help curb bad behavior and promote good player behavior significantly. |
AND if done openly, it can have immediate impacts on behavior when say a player gets called out like that. _________________ Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
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