Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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 Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2022 7:50 pm Post subject: Tactics skills (in both main editions) |
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I thought it would helpful to make one of my 'retroactive mechanics' posts for Tactics skills in the game. The original core books for both editions do not have a tactics skill. To start, here is a near-complete history of official tactics skills in the game that I had previously wrote up for discussion in a more general thead.
1987 - Star Wars: The Roleplaying Game (1e core) had no Tactics skill.
1988 - Tatooine Manhunt (1e adventure module), Adar Tallon's stats included the following: MEC 3D+2, Starship Tactics 9D+2. However, no details were given on how to use the skill in the module itself or the Rules Upgrade insert included with this and all 1988 releases.
1989 - The Star Wars Rules Companion's Capital Ship Combat chapter indicated that Starship Tactics from TM should be a Knowledge skill and had rules for use in the game (to deceive and anticipate enemies).
1990 - Galaxy Guide 5: Return of the Jedi (1e), Ackbar's stat block included Starship Tactics 7D as a Knowledge skill in accordance with TRC.
1992 - Star Wars: The Roleplaying Game, Second Edition (blue Vader core) left out Starship Tactics even though it had rules for five other Capital Ship skills.
1995 - Galaxy Guide 5: Return of the Jedi (2e), Ackbar's stat block did not have the base Tactics skill, but under Knowledge it did have three Tactics specializations - tactics: capital ships 7D, tactics: fleets 6D, and tactics: starfighters 5D+1. No details were given on how to use these skills, but this did foreshadow the future R&E's official formalization of Tactics in 2e. R&E was in development at the time of this release.
1996 - Classic Adventures: Volume Three included a re-publication of "Tatooine Manhunt" in 2e form. Adar Tallon's stats included the skill tactics: capital ships 9D+2 which conformed with the format of Ackbar's Tactics skill specializations in the 2e GG5 and the later Tactics skill in R&E, but this book listed it under Mechanical as Starship Tactics had been the 1e version of the adventure - D'oh!
1996 - Star Wars: The Roleplaying Game, Second Edition, Revised and Expanded formally introduced the Knowledge skill Tactics with second edition rules.
Below are the official rules for each sub-editions that have tactics skills (the final sub-edition of each edition). I'll cite the applicable basic combat round for quick reference for each. For full details of each combat round and citations, see this thread.
The first one was in the 1e Rules Companion. The tactics rules there include a reference to the "haste" mechanic, so I will share those rules as well. But the RC haste section was written considering the reader would already have knowledge of it from the 1e Rules Upgrade where it first appeared, so I'll briefly quote that first.
| The author of 1eRU wrote: | | Every haste a character declares counts as one action. The character declaring the greatest number of haste actions performs the first actions. |
The Round – 1e RULES COMPANION (1989)
1. Declare Actions and Full Reaction Skills.
2. Declare Combat Reaction Skills.
3. Roll Actions and Reactions in Order of Haste.
4. Calculate Damage as Hits Hit
| Greg Gorden wrote: | Haste
Haste actions may be declared in either the “Declare Actions” or the “Declare Reaction Skills” segments. Haste declared in the “Declare Actions” segment are applied to all actions. Increased haste may be declared in the “Declare Reaction Skills” segment, but this level of haste applies only to reaction skills. A character may never decrease his number of haste actions in the reaction skill segment, only increase them or leave them alone. The total number of haste actions taken by a character is the number stated in the “Declare Reaction Skills” segment.
Example: Erisson has decided to use a subtle tactic against his Gamorrean foe – shoot him in the tusks. He declares a single shot. The Gamorrean declares a haste and a brawling attack. Looking at the size of those green, wart covered arms, Erisson decides to declare a haste and a brawling parry. The Gamorrean’s attack and Erisson’s parry have the same degree of haste and happen simultaneously.
[1e Rules Companion p.13-14] |
Since 1e had no initiative, by default the higher skill rolls for the actions being attempted were opposed to determine which happened first, if one would affect the other. Haste was basically accepting more MAPs to get your actions to happen sooner than the skill roll opposition alone would determine. It is like adding negative action segments/turns that take place before the first one. (Adding initiative to 2e eliminated any need for haste mechanics, so haste disappeared from the game design, never to return.)
| Greg Gorden wrote: | Starship tactics
Starship tactics is a specialized Knowledge skill. In the published adventure Tatooine Manhunt, Old Republic Adar Tallon had his starship tactics code listed under Mechanical skills. From now on it is a Knowledge skill.
The following actions can be performed during capital ship combat using the starship tactics skill.
Anticipate Enemy: A Moderate starship tactics role is needed to “anticipate the enemy.” If the role is successful, a commander’s ship receives a “free” haste action – his ship receives no penalty for using the haste.
Deceive Enemy: A Difficult starship tactics role is needed to “deceive the enemy.” Success on this role allows a commander to redeclare his actions after hearing what his opponent has declared, even if he has already declared his own actions.
[1e Rules Companion p.45] |
The rules don't make sense as presented, because how could you roll to determine if you get a free, unpenalized haste action before determining how many haste actions penalties and MAPs you have to determine how many dice you have for the starship tactics skill roll? And how can you redeclare your actions after hearing the declaration of an opposing commander's actions when you can't make the starship tactics roll until after the declaration phases?
It's been 30 years, but as I recall, in practice we applied the outcomes of starship tactics rolls to the next round to make the system work. In 1e, starship tactics was only for capital ship combat, but the general concept was expanded upon for R&E's tactics skill.
The Round – 2e REVISED AND EXPANDED (1996)
1. Initiative
2. Rolling Actions
| To GMs, Bill Smith wrote: | Tactics
Time Taken: One round to several minutes.
Specializations: Type of military unit – squads, fleets,
capital ships, ground assault.
Tactics represents a character’s skill in deploying military forces and maneuvering them to his best advantage. It may be rolled to gain general knowledge of how best to stage certain military operations: blockading a planet with a fleet, invading an enemy installation, assaulting a fixed
turbolaser bunker.
This skill may also be used to determine the best response to an opponent’s move in battle: for instance, what to do if the enemy entraps your ships in a pincer movement, how to proceed in the assault should reinforcements arrive, what to do if a unit becomes trapped behind enemy lines.
Although tactics rolls might reveal how best to handle military situations, the final outcome of how well the character’s side does in a battle hinges on other skill rolls – command for the leader, and the combat rolls of both forces.
Tactics difficulties should be based on various factors of complexity within a battle: how many units are involved, the setting (open space or asteroid field, plains or jungle terrain), and the difference in training and equipment between units (Star Destroyers against starfighters, stormtroopers against Ewoks, Imperial Army troopers against crack Rebel commandos).
When rolling this skill, characters are often seeking ways to deal with military situations. The better the result, the more hints a gamemaster should give to help the character win the battle. Hints can take the form of reminders about different moves the enemy can make, suggestions on how to maneuver the character’s forces, or (for especially good rolls) risky and unanticipated moves which could throw the enemy off guard.
[2e Revised and Expanded p.47] |
In many cases rules can be ported between editions for house-ruling, but not always very easily. I've also realized more than ever that players and even GMs can be confused by rule changes from edition to edition, sometimes failing to divine the reason for the change or the full impact of the change on other mechanics, and other times failing to even notice there had been a change. I hope this helps.
EDIT: For the sake of completeness, IAG has no tactics skill, and D6 Space's tactics skill just mirrors R&E's (possible suggestions or hints from the GM).
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16320
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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As an Addendum, here is the current version of my Revised Tactics Skill Result Table. I need to sit down an write it up in a standard Skill format, but the basic premise is sound.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14212
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2023 1:24 am Post subject: |
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| DougRed4 wrote: | I considered allowing my PCs a Tactics roll when they moved through a city street and found themselves in (what was essentially) a 'kill box'.
But reading over the Tactics Skill in R&E, it specified how it really has more to do with larger troop units and battles. The stuff of significant warfare, rather than more terrorist or counter-insurgency type maneuvers for small units, or so it seemed to me reading over the description in the rules.
I of course could still have allowed a Tactics roll (as it was still probably the closest Skill), but I felt there was already a chance for the PCs to figure out what was going on (their opponents had to roll higher with sneak than they got with search or Perception). |
I see no prob with that, but was that YOU doing the roll for them, OR did you have THEM make the roll, just not knowing what for?
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DougRed4
Rear Admiral
Joined: 18 Jan 2013
Posts: 2286
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2023 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | DougRed4 wrote: | I considered allowing my PCs a Tactics roll when they moved through a city street and found themselves in (what was essentially) a 'kill box'.
But reading over the Tactics Skill in R&E, it specified how it really has more to do with larger troop units and battles. The stuff of significant warfare, rather than more terrorist or counter-insurgency type maneuvers for small units, or so it seemed to me reading over the description in the rules.
I of course could still have allowed a Tactics roll (as it was still probably the closest Skill), but I felt there was already a chance for the PCs to figure out what was going on (their opponents had to roll higher with sneak than they got with search or Perception). |
I see no prob with that, but was that YOU doing the roll for them, OR did you have THEM make the roll, just not knowing what for? |
I had all the characters make like six Perception (or search) rolls before the game started, then used them throughout the session.
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