A whole slew of them...

[garhkal]

This is about whether (if the below happened while you were the GM) would you award a DSP (or more)...

WARNING LONG! (to make it easier, i will make each one in quote marks)

[Endwyn]

As for the DSP's:

The crate - it was wrong, and they died. A jedi should be vigiliant and aware of the consequences of all actions. Not sure how DPS's are dished out in D20, but yes this could be one in D6. If it was truely a accidental oversight on your part in every way and you were unaware of the consequences of your actions you might get away with it.....might.

The tec room - definatly dark side. You acted on emotion, death or no death you were doomed to walk a dark path when you acted on your emotions. Panik comes from fear and fear leads to the dark side. Still, don't understand the system of how many get dished for what.

It depends on who's firing the weapons. In WEG if the gunner is non-force sensitive, no; force sensitive - not if it is truely for the greater good or they can justify and rationalize it; a jedi - yes unless they are unaware of what's happening.

Calling on the dark side is always dark side - no excuses. Yes, it's two different acts. Murder of innocents and calling on the dark side. (Normally in WEG most people limit it to one a scene, but in this case one for the scene, one for the act of calling on the dark side.)

Cultural wrongs and DSP's are not the same. If he was acting on emotion, yes. Was there truely no other alternative? Could he not have used another force ability? I would have created a distraction (think Obi-Wan on the death star when the stormtrooper look for the noise.) After all, the dog shouldn't fear an incapacitated droid.

The Jedi should have used legal channels. Like explain to the new owner what had happened and re-embursed him for the droid or created a deal to either retrieve old data / purchase it. Things like this should come before theft....unless there's a really good reason.

It depends on what could have been done. Did you have time to react better? Could you have dropped your weapons and exchanged yourself willingly as a hostage during the negotiations? Or did this whole scene happen in two rounds? If you knew the other PC was about to pull a stunt that treatened her life and did nothing, yes.

Anytime the Jedi are faced with overwhellming odds or threats against innocents they always surrended in the movies. Why? Because an opportunity will present itself for them to save everyone without risking their lives. Killing in cold blood is bad, especially when there are options. Allowing the wookies to die due to reckless actions is no better.

---

The PC's should never tell the GM how things are going to be in a demand style fashion. Who gets DSP and when really depends on their connection to the force. The closer the connection the easier it is to fall astray.

The PC killed dishonarbly...not good.....not good at all. Some situational information could make a difference, sounds dark to me though.

Only when enraged.

Not nice, but so long as the master knew it was stun and no harm could come to you; not really. Unless he acted on an emotion. He should have just dodged.

I disagree with the judge, but your playing WotC - it's a combat gave they probably go easy on the Jedi.

For WEG I would say two. One for the scene and one for the calling on the dark side.
_________________
Luke, I am your father.
That's impossible!
And Leia is your sister!
That's improbable?
And the Empire will be destroyed by..EWOKS!
That's...highly unlikely.
The Force? Bacteria called midichlorians.
If you don’t take this seriously I'm out.

[Sabre]

Wow, that IS a lot....

1) Rebel party on SD leaving the wounded behind: 0 DSP. The Empire guarantees their wounded companions medical treatment? A few things wrong with that... first, it's the Empire making the guarantee. Second, even if they live they'll likely be tortured for information, then executed for defying the empire (along with anyone who surrendered).

2) Locked in a crate: 0 or 1 DSP. Maybe you should have thought of air holes, but if he was going to be awarding DSPs for something like that he should have casually reminded you about something like that, or described the crate in such a way that you would know it didn't have any airflow. If you actually intended to kill them by suffocating them, I'd say one DSP would be good enough.
Killing Technicians: 0 DSP. The way you describe it, it was a matter of self defense. They didn't surrender and they're hostile. You have the rest of the party to think about. I think the GM wanted them to sound the alarm, so he penalized you for foiling that.
Gunners/Self Sacrifice: 0 DSP. It's not as simple as 'he told me to kill him, so it's justified'. There was a reasonable expectation that none of the occupants of that ship would have survived (expect the Dark Jedi who would have then killed the others), AND there was permission/self sacrifice involved. The one who gave the order to fire at the expense of his life should get a FP or a few even (still dies, but...). Nobody else gets a DSP.

3) Joe v. Bob: 2-7 DSP (or instant fall) Of course a DSP is gained for calling on the dark side. Apart from that, Joe is a Jedi. He has a responsibility to protect the lives of those innocents. DSP for Joe and tell him to re-read the jedi rules if he wants to play a Jedi as his next character.

4) Dead Dog, Stolen Droid: 0 DSP. The Jedi was not acting with aggression, he had to move to the dog to attack the dog to save the droid, and droids with personalities are 'people' too. If anything, as the droid has no means of defending itself, the Jedi is responsible for defending it. As the Jedi came from a pacifist society... don't know why he has a lightsaber. He should have found a more creative/in character solution and I might dock him bonus CPs at the end of the game, but DSP? No. As for the stolen droid... Probably no DSP. I'm sure many Jedi Masters would consider it an object lesson in the dangers of dealing in stolen property. Additionally, if there was some need for this droid for the 'greater good' commandeering it is not wrong. If the act was totally capricious and the innocent owner suffered harm because of it, I might give one DSP.

5) Hostage situation: 0 DSP. You really run a gruesome game, doncha? But! In this case, hindsight is 20/20. They didn't know the guy would negotiate (he might just as well have killed the hostage after getting what he wanted). They didn't know about the triplets (I guess it wasn't an obvious stage of pregnancy?) and they can only act on what they know. The Jedi, by trying to save the hostage, was doing what was required of him/her as a Jedi. Perhaps use of the Force might have provided better insight into the situation, but the inexperienced force user might not have known or might not have been able to do anything along those lines.

6) Imperial Bargain: 0 DSP. The Imperial officer didn't offer a deal, he made a threat. A deal would have been 'If you leave now you can take the wookies with you and we'll let you walk'. Even then, it's the empire that's being dealt with. Any deal is likely a trap. Sure there are some who'd hold up their end of the bargain, but you can't be sure which ones will or won't. To accept the deal would have been to fail the wookies and to fail his friends who sacrificed themselves to rescue them. Also, he spoke his reasoning aloud; he thought that the wookies would be saved by his actions.

7) Ambush: 1 DSP. The enemies are fleeing and weren't aggressive to begin with. Letting them go would have resulted in no consequences for the party. Letting them go was merely a matter of remaining hidden. A force point is used. The player is forewarned of DSPs. The player is amused by the prospect of DSPs.

8 ) GTA: Mos Eisley: This is already a dark side campaign, DSPs irrelevant/not evil enough to warrant DSPs. And furthermore, an R2 unit has life preservation programming and couldn't be ordered to remove the head of a stunned stormtrooper. The defel would have to do it himself. I'd probably dump a player group like this, or at the very least change the characters/campaign.

9) Anger?: 0-1 DSP: Just looking at the given text, no DSPs. They're in a fight situation, both disarmed, one gets their weapon back and ends the fight. The player in question has a history for tending toward the light side. If I were there, I might have called it differently, depending on how the player RP'd. If he was clearly acting out of anger, DSP him, but also give him bonus CPs for portraying that anger. I would have liked to see him not activate the saber, but instead just have it at his back, then either let the other guy pick up his weapon, or end the fight with the other guy's surrender... however, there's no guarantee he would surrender and letting him get his weapon could turn out badly, so no DSP for not acting the way I would have liked.

10) Some droids are calculators. Some droids have personalities.
Rage against the machine: 1 DSP. I agree, acting on rage is dark side.
Please don't deactivate me: 1 DSP, maybe 0. Droids blur the line on definitions like 'machine' and 'person'. Isaac Asimov has a lot to say on the topic. In any case, in Star Wars, droids are treated like people. Unless the droid somehow consented to this operation and there was a good reason for it, the player gets a DSP. Being calm about taking an unwilling person apart for spare parts only makes the act more disgusting in a lot of ways.

11) Meat Shield: 0 DSP. The character really wasn't hurt or in any danger he wasn't in already. The master is more responsible for the safety of the pupil having used him like this.

12) Lethal Counterforce: 0 DSP. The bounty hunters attacked the players. They used stun batons because they needed to capture their victims live for whoever posted the bounty. Whoever posted the bounty does not have the characters' best interests in mind and would likely have harmed them further. They may not be killing him, but they're setting him up to die later, so it's practially the same. The Jedi isn't obligated to save people who are trying to kill him, it's just nice.
Attack on Fleeing: 1 DSP. Head judge was flat out wrong. The fight was over, the hunters had surrendered and were no longer aggressive and no longer their enemies. All the Jedi has to do is let them go and everyone walks away, which any Jedi should consider the best case scenario.
Additional: The player in question should get a reduced reward at the end of the game. You don't argue with the GM, ESPECIALLY in a convention setting with other players waiting, the GM put a lot of effort into preparting and the GM was nice enough to gave you warnings on your actions. Whining to the head judge was disgraceful. Also, the player in question didn't care about the morals behind the action. This is completely out of character for someone playing as a Jedi and very bad roleplaying.

13) E-Web Takeover: 0 DSP. The player in question cannot both call on the dark side and spend an FP. Calling on the dark side grants an FP which must be used immediately. Only one FP can be spent. Whether or not the Imps offered them a chance to surrender is irrelevant... as in previous cases with Imperials, you can bet that they're going to torture/kill you later. The motives of the Imperials are irrelevant as the players can't know that information. The players didn't know they would be rescued, so that information is also not relevant. The main issue you might disagree with here is shooting the guy in the back, but the Imps are the aggressors and that action would save the rest of the team and it's not really shooting him in the back if he starts from in front. The idea to confiscate the E-Web would have been good, but it's just something the player didn't think of. If you'd wanted it to go that way, you might have recommended it then, but even if he refuses the combat situation is continuous.

[Grimace]

I'm only going to tackle a couple of them, as my time is short. I'll attempt more later.

1. (I believe we already discussed this one in private, but my opinion still stands). No DSP. You can't trust the Empire to honor what they offer, and giving up will surely doom everyone, not just those that are down and dying.

2. Crate. Silly oversight, but I'd probably give a Jedi 1 DSP. If the Jedi was alien, however, like a Givin, I wouldn't give any DSP, as such a character might not realistically think of things like "breathing" when doing such a thing.

3. Facility. Depends on the mood of the Jedi. Trying for stealth, and everyone is an "enemy", then I'd say no DSP. Just wanting to "kill sumthin'", then 1 DSP for the whole shebang.

4. Ships. No DSP. It should be a moral dilemma, for sure, but I wouldn't give any DSP for something that one PC is requesting of another in order to further the side of good.

5. I think we talked about this one as well, and besides the 1 DSP for the "calling the Dark Side", I would also give another DSP for chucking explosives in and killing innocents. In addition, I would also require TWO rolls to see of the character turns to the Dark Side.

6. Droid/Dog. No DSP

7. If an attempt at negotiations was made, and didn't work, and then Jedi attempted something non-hostile to foil the bad guy, I would not give out a DSP, not even with a pregnant lady. If Jedi decides to "screw the negotiations" and does something cocky and the hostage dies, then 1 DSP. The fact the lady is pregnant is irrelevant.


That's all I have time for now. More later.

[Boomer]

[garhkal]

Interesting responses so far...

Sabre. So to you the empire as a whole, no matter who in it, is a bunch of lying fools, and no one keeps their word? It is a wonder Anything ever gets done then...

On the gunners shooting the other ship. The reason the dsps came up was, cause of killing others, not just the one who gave the order. It was a private venture, so no ordering/military structure was involved. And even then, killing of a fellow PC without their ok in our group is a dsp. Just for note..

For the dead dog/droid... So IYO it is ok for a jedi to kill something alive to protect something not alive?
Also, it seems that you condone the breaking of the law?. What with oking them to steal, if they can justify it. But by that argument, does not it then become 'the ends justify the means'?? And is that not of the dark side....
Tied in, with the counterforce. First off, they were bounty hunters. Yes some are skum, but even then, bounty hunters are still recognized representitives of the LAW So by saying that cause the law attacked the character with the intent to capture, they are ok to be killed by the jedi? What about the fact he had to do something BAD to get that bounty.???


Boomer. Seems you think like sabre with the no trusting the empuire, ever. Would you trust thrawn or paleon?
_________________
Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk!

[Endwyn]

I didn't respond to the first one, but here's my POV. The empire can't be trusted, but the rebels have much more to offer them alive....at least through interogations. It is unheroic to not surrender to save your friends when their doom is certain. Sure the empire like to lie, cheat, and steal.....but more than anything else, greed drives their officers. Greed for a better job, a better planet, more pay, ect. Now rebels naturally have at least a contact and/or the knowledge of the one rebel base / cell they work out of. What's the fastest way to promotion? Exposing a rebel base / cell. Sure a couple rebels is nice - but elimnating a base!

From my experioences the empire always wants something more. Look at Han and Leia on cloud city.....they kept them alive because they wanted something, only after they got it did they risk Han's life to ensure they wouldn't hurt Skywalker. So unless you refuse to play along a little, "Dantoine, they're on Dantoine", the empire will have no more use for you. In the last example Leia not only didn't expose the rebels - they kept her alive long enough to check the information in case they wanted more / found out it wasn't true.

So, what I'm saying is, surrender and look for another opportunity. So long as the group gives the empire something to chew on..."I'll never tell you where the rebel fleet is!", the empire will bite. Some self-serving low end officer wants a promotion.
_________________
Luke, I am your father.
That's impossible!
And Leia is your sister!
That's improbable?
And the Empire will be destroyed by..EWOKS!
That's...highly unlikely.
The Force? Bacteria called midichlorians.
If you don’t take this seriously I'm out.

[Sabre]

[Boomer]

No need for examples.

The empire is simply untrustworthy. In a negotiation, you cannot be sure of the outcome, so the decision to flee or kill them is as good as the decision to trust them, you just don't know which option is better.

So no DSPs, not even FPs. Why would you trust someone that condones execution and torture for minor crimes, like having an opinion?

100% liars? Oh no, if you could rely on the empire to ALWAYS lie to you, than the you get FPs for killing imperials at the risk of your own life during a negotiation.
_________________
My backpack has jets!
I'm Boba the Fett!
And I bounty hunt for Jabba Hutt,
to finance my 'vette!

[Endwyn]

The game is designed to be cinematic, like a movie. The characters are supposed to be heroic. It's not heroic to run away and let your friends die. While this is OOC knowledge, it is the premise for the game. The imperials can't be trusted, but can be used. You want your friends to live, they want information. They aren't stupid, if you have something they want they will give you what you want. Now, once you've given them what they want - all bets are off.

You can definatly play them though. Liars, untrustworthy; yes. Unmanipulatable - no.
_________________
Luke, I am your father.
That's impossible!
And Leia is your sister!
That's improbable?
And the Empire will be destroyed by..EWOKS!
That's...highly unlikely.
The Force? Bacteria called midichlorians.
If you don’t take this seriously I'm out.

[Sabre]

I think there are common sense limits to heroism, and I think this falls under those cases. From the movies, one instance where the Empire was interrogating a prisoner stands out to me: Tarkin and Leia. In order to convince Leia to give up the location of the rebel base, Tarkin destroys Alderaan. The Imperial commander the rebel group in question was potentially going to surrender to might have executed the rebels one by one to persuade them to talk, or might have gone so far as to track down families and have them executed until someone talked.
As for making deals with the Empire, Lando made that mistake. He tried to bargain for Han, Leia, and Chewie's safety, and Vader offered him what he wanted, but eventually he kept altering the deal until Lado realized the Empire would just take everything anyway and changed sides. Also, you mention Han and Leia on Cloud City, I distinctly recall the line of Han's after he is returned to the cell from being tortured "They didn't even ask me any questions." This is exactly the sort of people not to deal with. There are plenty of reasonable doubts one could have.
Sure attempting to manipulate them might prolong the life of your comrades, but to what end? In RPG terms, there's no guarantee the GM will have you rescued or give you an opportunity to escape that won't result in even more of your friends dying. Retreating may not be the most heroic course of action, but neither is surrender.

[Endwyn]

Leia had been screwing around with the Imperials for quite some time not giving them answers. They finally decided to off her and she caved to live. While she gave them bad information, it kept her alive long enough to get rescued.

Lando's deal did keep getting changed, like I said the Empire can be trusted only until they have what they want. (Once Leia gave them the location of the rebel base, they destroyed Alderaan. Once Lando gave Han and Leia the deal started to change.) It's about power, once you have given it to the empire they will use it. (And yes, they didn't ask Han questions, but they didn't kill him either.)

I agree the empire's not nice, but they will "play nice(er)" until they have what they want. Not an empire sitch, but Obi-wan surrendered on Genosis, Anakin surrendered latter. He could have found a way to have escaped himself and left Padme behind....had he done the unheroic thing.

In the RotJ, Han and Leia are part of that quick turn around, where they were captured for a moment...the truely ddark empire you paint would have just blated them down with the AT-ST's. But........the empire wanted something, so they let them live, before the situation got any further the tide of the battle turned.

I agree completely, you can't trust the empire once they have what they want. And as far as a GM not giving the rebels a chance to escape....any GM that wouldn't give the PC's a way out for doing the heroic thing in an attempt to save their friends is being very uncinematic. How many movies have the hero allow themselves to be captured for a "greater good/intention"? The heroes that run away either don't have anyone else to worry about, don't know a friend is in danger, or knows the friend will be OK because if they escape the friend becomes bait.

If I was going to retreat, I would at least bait the empire to help my friends and use them as a trap for me. If you honestly know the imperial leader of the base, know he won't keep his word for a second and would kill you all. Yell as you retreat, (or perhaps send a droid with the message) "I would do anything for my friends, even sacrafice myself...but we both know they're dead and you won't help them. Now you have nothing to show to the moff except three dead rebels and a failed attempt at the rest......he will be ......most impressed with your performance."

At least then the characters are baiting the Imp to revive the fallen rebels in an attempt to capture the rest and/or interogate them. Again, power and motivation.

I'm not saying you can't retreat; just that ot's not noble and there are ways to manipulate the situation to your favor.
_________________
Luke, I am your father.
That's impossible!
And Leia is your sister!
That's improbable?
And the Empire will be destroyed by..EWOKS!
That's...highly unlikely.
The Force? Bacteria called midichlorians.
If you don’t take this seriously I'm out.

[garhkal]

Saber..

[Endwyn]

I really want to say yes...but you've peaked my curtiosity as to what part and for what. I'll make you a deal - you promise me that it won't end up on a porno and if it's printed somewhere I get the option of credit.....then I'll say yes.

Ok, porno's negotiable......but it's gonna cost you 6% of sales and the title of the movie has to be in smaller letters than my name, which has to appear in 34 pt Tahoma, bold, dark blue with a cool shadow effect.
_________________
Luke, I am your father.
That's impossible!
And Leia is your sister!
That's improbable?
And the Empire will be destroyed by..EWOKS!
That's...highly unlikely.
The Force? Bacteria called midichlorians.
If you don’t take this seriously I'm out.

[garhkal]

Well, like the situation says, it is in one of my modules. As yet, the situation has come up 0 times but i like being prepared. So i love hearing how others might handle it.

Gaghhh.. Just remembered, what you posted was from the players perspective. I would be the gm (since it is my module).... But still, i liked it.
_________________
Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk!