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MrNexx
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 Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2021 11:06 am Post subject: "Madclaw" |
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So, does anyone know the origin of "Wookiees don't use their claws in combat"?
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Naaman
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2021 11:17 am Post subject: Re: "Madclaw" |
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| MrNexx wrote: | | So, does anyone know the origin of "Wookiees don't use their claws in combat"? |
It was added in by WEG in the HttE Sourcebook, at the same time they added the claws. Mostly sounds like a balancing method and an attempt to explain why we never see Wookiee claws in the films.
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Whill
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| Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2021 12:49 pm Post subject: Re: "Madclaw" |
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| MrNexx wrote: | | So, does anyone know the origin of "Wookiees don't use their claws in combat"? |
| Naaman wrote: | | I always assumed it was WEG for the sake of not having wookiees being OP... |
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | It was added in by WEG in the HttE Sourcebook, at the same time they added the claws. Mostly sounds like a balancing method and an attempt to explain why we never see Wookiee claws in the films. |
The HttE Sb was a 1e product released as 2e was still in development. 1e aliens did not have special abilities per se. WEG first gave Wookiees claws in Blue Vader 2e, and there is the note that indicates that that Wookiees never use the claws in combat.
Zahn admits that he didn't think about the discontinuity of Wookiees having unseen claws, and that it was WEG who 'came to his rescue.' See below.
https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Madclaw#Behind_the_scenes
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2021 1:07 pm Post subject: Re: "Mad Claw" |
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| Whill wrote: | | The HttE Sb was a 1e product released as 2e was still in development. 1e aliens did not have special abilities per se. |
It may not have been a Special Ability until 2E, but it was specifically incorporated into the fluff for Wookiees in the HttE Sourcebook. Here's the text, from pg. 99:"They seem to simply charge forward like massive engines of war, their great arms swinging, their huge fists shattering whatever they hit. Wookiees will not use their claws in combat, however. They believe that to do so would be a breach of honor, and honor is very important to the Wookiee race. It is one of the most important concepts in Wookiee culture, and to lose one's honor is equivalent to death.
| Quote: | | WEG first gave Wookiees claws in Blue Vader 2e, and there is the note that indicates that that Wookiees never use the claws in combat. |
If you look on pg. 100 of the HttE Sourcebook, you'll see that WEG gave the "Typical Wookiee" character stat the following notation:Natural Tools: Claws: Add +1D to climbing. Of course, they couldn't be bothered to add the claws to the three Wookiee NPC stats in the sourcebook...
| Quote: | | Zahn admits that he didn't think about the discontinuity of Wookiees having unseen claws, and that it was WEG who 'came to his rescue.' |
In all fairness, I can't recall a specific instance in the OT where claws would've been an obvious advantage to Chewbacca.
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Whill
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| Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2021 2:21 pm Post subject: Re: "Madclaw" |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | The HttE Sb was a 1e product released as 2e was still in development. 1e aliens did not have special abilities per se. WEG first gave Wookiees claws in Blue Vader 2e, and there is the note that indicates that that Wookiees never use the claws in combat. |
If you look on pg. 100 of the HttE Sourcebook, you'll see that WEG gave the "Typical Wookiee" character stat the following notation:Natural Tools: Claws: Add +1D to climbing. Of course, they couldn't be bothered to add the claws to the three Wookiee NPC stats in the sourcebook... |
I stand corrected on the first WEG appearance of the claws. The HttE Sb is an odd transition book that came out in 1992, not long before Blue Vader 2e. I've actually owned it twice in my life and gotten rid of it both times (I still have the TTT Sb). All references to Character Points in that book were Fate Points, which was obviously an intended change for 2e they decided not to implement. WEG later used Fate Points to be the non-Star-Wars name for Force Points.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Quote: | | Zahn admits that he didn't think about the discontinuity of Wookiees having unseen claws, and that it was WEG who 'came to his rescue.' |
In all fairness, I can't recall a specific instance in the OT where claws would've been an obvious advantage to Chewbacca. |
On Endor, Chewie would have had to climb up a tree to Tarzan-swing with the two Ewoks onto the top of the AT-ST.
Of course, the film not showing the climb doesn't mean that Lucas ever envisioned Wookiees to have claws. Ewoks have visible finger nails and no claws, yet they are arboreal. Even Ewoks have primitive technological assistance, and Wookiees are more advanced and stronger.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2021 3:06 pm Post subject: Re: "Mad Claw" |
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| Whill wrote: | | On Endor, Chewie would have had to climb up a tree to Tarzan-swing with the two Ewoks onto the top of the AT-ST. |
I chose my words carelessly; I meant that I didn't recall an instance on screen where claws would've given Chewbacca an advantage. While you're certainly correct that they would've come in handy there, they would've been used off-screen, and thus would not have created a conflict with canon.
To clarify, I can't think of a moment on screen where Chewbacca should have used claws (if he had them), but didn't. As such, WEG adding them in isn't an obvious canon conflict.
| Quote: | | Of course, the film not showing the climb doesn't mean that Lucas ever envisioned Wookiees to have claws. Ewoks have visible finger nails and no claws, yet they are arboreal. Even Ewoks have primitive technological assistance, and Wookiees are more advanced and stronger. |
Ultimately, I don't consider the inclusion of Wookiee climbing claws as something worth getting worked up over either way. I include them in my own headcanon mostly because 1) as I pointed out above, they aren't in canon conflict with the films, and 2) I don't like throwing out any Star Wars source (particularly the works of Zahn) if I can at all help it. YMMV.
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Last edited by CRMcNeill on Fri Jan 28, 2022 4:53 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Whill
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TauntaunScout
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| Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2021 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Instead of the whole dishonorable nonsense, they should've just said "Evolved specifically to grip bark, these claws are of negligible value in combat". |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2021 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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| TauntaunScout wrote: | | Instead of the whole dishonorable nonsense, they should've just said "Evolved specifically to grip bark, these claws are of negligible value in combat". |
Even better, have them do reduced damage based on their positioning, so they add +1D to Climbing, but do Str-1D damage in combat. So, sure, a Wookiee could use them in combat, but why would they?
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Mamatried
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| Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2021 7:58 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | TauntaunScout wrote: | | Instead of the whole dishonorable nonsense, they should've just said "Evolved specifically to grip bark, these claws are of negligible value in combat". |
Even better, have them do reduced damage based on their positioning, so they add +1D to Climbing, but do Str-1D damage in combat. So, sure, a Wookiee could use them in combat, but why would they? |
I would probably not give them negative damage, but rather a bonus +1D to climbing only, but nothing at all to combat.
making it Claws: +1D climbing, +/- 0 Brawling Damage
They still have the same impact, claws in or out, so I would think that is the most logical, they do not need to use the claws in combat becuse it meas no difference they are simply "too strong" we see them toss a man for several meters more than once. |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:15 am Post subject: |
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Somewhat off-topic, but the design of the Wookiee Ryyk blades always seemed a little off to me, as in, they aren't really suited to an arboreal species. One alternative that occurred to me recently is replacing the canon Ryyk with something along the lines of a scaled-up Karambit. This knife is a little odd looking, but it's designed to allow the wielder to put the force of a punch behind the blade, and the leverage of the design means it leaves vicious slash wounds. The ring on the pommel acts almost like a brass knuckle, so you have the option of punching with it, not just slashing. It's not much of a parrying weapon, but if you're hanging from a tree branch by one hand and having to slash another Wookiee or some wild animal with the other, having a blade weapon that maximizes a Wookiee's physical strength with an added assurance of being less likely to fall due to your index finger being inside the pommel ring would be a definite advantage.
Add to that that the small size makes them much easier to conceal than meter-long swords, and they have a lot to recommend themselves.
Anyway, that's me rambling...
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TauntaunScout
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| Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2021 10:31 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Somewhat off-topic, but the design of the Wookiee Ryyk blades always seemed a little off to me, as in, they aren't really suited to an arboreal species. |
That's just theater weapons for you. The "purpose" of a Ryyk blade was to look cool in a movie. There's been functionally stupid, but visually cool, weapons being designed for theatrical combat in pretty much every culture at all times. |
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pakman
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| Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2021 11:30 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | TauntaunScout said:
There's been functionally stupid, but visually cool....
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This phase summarizes perhaps 99% of the headaches gamers have in trying to adopt cool stuff from beloved source materials for almost every game system and setting ever....
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2021 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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| TauntaunScout wrote: | | That's just theater weapons for you. The "purpose" of a Ryyk blade was to look cool in a movie. There's been functionally stupid, but visually cool, weapons being designed for theatrical combat in pretty much every culture at all times. |
Ryyk blades pre-date the movie. They were first mentioned in Heir to the Empire, but never really described beyond being "a pair of wicked looking knives," small enough to be concealed under a baldric. It wasn't until the EGtW&T that they were given form, but were no longer knives. Instead, one was a more like a machete, and the other was a tonfa with a blade in place of a club. Apparently the writers for the EGtW&T had an overly broad definition of what constituted a knife.
It's possible there are multiple sizes of ryyk blades, from tiny close-combat weapons ala the kerambit all the way up to full-on swords wielded by Wookiees in the films, but the Ryyk Blades as described in the EGtW&T (and thus the rest of the EU) don't match the limited description we get of them.
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