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Whill
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 Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2022 7:59 pm Post subject: Passive Physical Awareness (and the Search skill) |
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CORE BOOKS
Star Wars 1st Edition
Star Wars 2nd Edition, Blue Vader
Star Wars 2nd Edition, Revised and Expanded
D6 Space
In all editions of Star Wars D6, there are some things that are inherent to a base attribute only (so there is no skill-based way to improve them), such as Strength to resist damage, initiative (Perception), and non-Force-sensitives resisting the Force (Perception).
I have observed that both here and elsewhere in the Star Wars D6 community, there has been some confusion among gamers about passive physical awareness. So I thought it would be nice to have a clear reference for this issue when it crops up.
Below is a look at how passive awareness is handled in the D6 game, but this does not show an evolution like my analysis of the combat round in all WEG Star Wars editions. There are only two ways that passive awareness is handled, but it's a "one of these things is not like the other..." situation.
1e Core
| In Attributes and Skills, Greg Costikyan wrote: | Perception
Noticing Things
When something happens in the game that a character could miss, and you want to determine whether he notices it, have his player make a perception attribute roll.
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Search
Used when trying to locate someone or something.
[1e p.36,42] |
In simple language, it is clear in 1e that passive awareness checks are handled by the "Perception attribute" and active awareness checks are handled by the search skill. The 1e Rules Upgrade and the Rules Companion do not change this.
2e Blue Vader | Bill Smith wrote: | How Do You Figure Out If Someone Is Surprised?
...When the targets of the ambush come within range (just a couple of seconds before the ambush is going to be sprung), roll Perception checks for each character: they spot whomever their Perception roll beat. If none of them spotted any of the attackers, they will be surprised by the ambush.
The targets are rolling their Perception because it's presumed that they won't be expecting an ambush-if the targets have every reason to expect an ambush, they may make search rolls. As a rule of thumb, characters can't make search rolls for ambushes if they are moving faster than walking speed.
If the players' characters are walking into an ambush, allow each character to generate their Perception total. If the players declared beforehand that they were searching for an ambush and are not moving faster than walking (half) speed, they may make their search rolls.
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When a character makes a pick pocket attempt, the victim makes an opposed Perception roll
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Search
Time Taken: One round
This skill is used when the character is trying to spot hidden objects or individuals. If the subject of the search has been purposefully hidden, the searching character makes an opposed skill roll against the hiding character's hide skill. If the object hasn't been hidden, the character simply makes a roll against a difficulty
[Blue Vader p.66-67,74,85] |
No change here. The ambush/surprise rules alone of the first 2e core make it explicitly clear that passive awareness rolls are made with the base Perception attribute while search is for active awareness. After that, the sentences from the pick pocket and search skill descriptions taken a face value conform to that, but I mainly included them to contrast with their counterparts in R&E below...
2e R&E | An author of R&E wrote: | ...
Amy: "Can I see any of this going on?"
Bill: "Make a search roll."
Amy: "I didn't improve search, but it's a Perception skill, right? My Perception's 3D ..." (Rolls three dice) "... a 3, 4, and 6—that's a 13."
Bill: "Out of the corner of your eye you see Cev pulling the wallet out of the man's pocket.
[R&E p.17] |
Bill the GM saying "out of the corner of your eye" to a player is a clear indication of passive awareness. The player Amy had meta-knowledge of Cev picking the pocket of an NPC, but knew that didn't mean her character was automatically aware of it so asked the GM if her character could see it. The GM tells her to make a search roll (and she rolls Perception for attribute default because she hadn't improved the search skill). Search is clearly intended for passive awareness here.
| An author of R&E wrote: | When a character makes a pick pocket attempt, the victim makes an opposed search or Perception roll to notice it.
[R&E p.40] |
The R&E version of this sentence adds "search or" to the sentence, making it a clear distinction from Blue Vader which only said Perception.
| An author of R&E wrote: | Gamemasters often ask players to make search or Perception rolls to see how much their characters notice about their surroundings. The higher the roll, the more the character notices.
[R&E p.53] |
Blue Vader doesn't say much about the attributes themselves, but in the reorganized R&E, the above is a sentence from the Perception attribute section that's analogous to the "noticing things" statement in 1e. "Search or Perception" is used for passive awareness.
| An author of R&E wrote: | Search
...
This skill is also used to spot hiding characters, such as a group of aliens preparing an ambush.
[R&E p.57] |
R&E has the full text of the search skill description from Blue Vader which speaks to active awareness, but it adds the above sentence in reference to a passive awareness situation. Search is "also" passive awareness.
| An author of R&E wrote: | Secret Checks. There are times when you'll need to know if a character notices something, but you don't want to alert the players that "something's up." (This is especially handy if the characters are blithely wandering into an ambush.)
Before the game, make several rolls for each die code (1D, 2D, 3D, 4D, etc.).
Keep a record of each player character's attributes, skills and equipment.
When you need to know if a character noticed something, the character's search or perception die code and choose one of the die rolls you made (add the +1 or +2 as necessary). the die roll is higher than the difficulty, the character "noticed something"; if not, the character remains unaware. Cross off each die roll as it's used. This is a good way to give the characters a fair chance while not arousing the players' suspicions.
[R&E p.82] |
Secret checks for characters noticing an ambush are made with search or perception in R&E.
D6 Space | Nikola Vrtis wrote: | Observation...
To see if a character notices details of a scene or situation, the gamemaster may have the player make a Perception roll. Unless the characters are actively eavesdropping, searching, tracking, or performing a similar activity (and thus using the search skill), this passive observance of a scene does not count as an action.
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Search...
When used to eavesdrop on or secretly watch an event or another character, the skill total indicates the amount of information gained from the surveillance....
When searching for a hidden object or person, the difficulty is generally the hide roll used to conceal the target. Otherwise, the base difficulty is 5, modified by the table below...
When attempting to track someone, the base difficulty is IO or the target's sneak roll, if the target is actively trying to hide her trail. Characters can also use search to shadow a target.
[D6 Space p.85,92] |
D6 Space decidedly returns to the Perception-passive/search-active awareness model.
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Last edited by Whill on Thu Jan 18, 2024 2:42 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10434
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2022 8:00 pm Post subject: Re: Passive Physical Awareness |
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Hopefully this clarifies what RAW is in each core book, regardless of how you do it. One things I find odd is that this particular change from Blue Vader was not represented in the official free 2e Rules Upgrade document (for those with Blue Vader so they could use R&E rules without having to buy R&E). As far as I know, it is the only change not mentioned there.
I also can't speculate as to why this change was made in R&E, as I didn't like this particular change so it doesn't seem like an improvement to me. When I noticed it, I house ruled it to keep doing it the way I had been (passive awareness is Perception). It makes sense to me that some people can be better at active awareness than passive, and the attribute-passive/skill-active system accomplishes that.
If a player in my game wants a character that has a high passive awareness, then they can make their PC with a high Perception. And for years I have had an advantage available (costing 1D in skills) that gives a +2 bonus to passive awareness checks (and +1 to initiative), but it has a prerequisite of also allocating at least 1D to the search skill (so active is slightly higher than passive).
In researching this thread, I came across a post by CRMcNeill that suggested an option of passive awareness being improved by a really high search, so it could be the better of the character's Perception or half-search. I already applied that to Strength to resist damage (half-stamina). I had forgotten about that compromise. I would have to change my character sheet to add that derived stat.
My only speculation for D6 Space changing it back to the way it was before R&E is because they felt that had been the wrong direction to go. But that would confirm my bias and I don't really know.
How do you handle passive awareness? I wonder if those who use search for passive awareness are mostly those that started playing the game with R&E. If you handle it like R&E, I submit that search is not really a good name for the skill as "search" implies active awareness. (I changed it to searching, but it is still an active awareness skill in my game and I like my gerunds).
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Dr. Bidlo
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| Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2022 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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| I had been playing this per Blue Vader for as long as I have been GRINGO. I only very recently learned of the rule clarification because one of your posts. I do not agree with using search for passive awareness either, but CRMcNeill's proposed house rule of Perception or half Search sounds like a great balance between the two that I intend to start using. |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2022 9:02 pm Post subject: Re: Passive Physical Awareness |
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| Whill wrote: | | How do you handle passive awareness? |
Well, I guess my answer has already been provided above... 
A quick Thesaurus search presented a few options. We've already used Discernment, but a few other possibles are:Notice
Observe / Observation
Detect / Detection I'm partial to Notice, since it's sufficiently broad to cover both the passive and active aspects of Search.
On a somewhat related note, I recall you talking about moving Investigation from Perception to Knowledge and having a sort-of forensic investigation skill under Perception. Since said investigators are commonly known as Detectives, perhaps Detection would be a good name for the Perception side of Investigation.
Either that or make it an (A) Skill with Investigation and Search (or whatever you end up calling it) as prerequisites.
But I digress...
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Whill
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2022 11:25 pm Post subject: Re: Passive Physical Awareness |
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| Dr. Bidlo wrote: | | I had been playing this per Blue Vader for as long as I have been GRINGO. I only very recently learned of the rule clarification because one of your posts. I do not agree with using search for passive awareness either, but CRMcNeill's proposed house rule of Perception or half Search sounds like a great balance between the two that I intend to start using. |
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | How do you handle passive awareness? |
Well, I guess my answer has already been provided above... |
Cool. In that thread, you said after thinking about it that you preferred R&E RAW, so I got impression that the "half-search" was a suggested compromise for me. Regardless, good idea.
| Quote: | | I'm partial to Notice, since it's sufficiently broad to cover both the passive and active aspects of Search. |
For those that stick with R&E RAW, that works. Discernment is my active social awareness skill...
| Quote: | | On a somewhat related note, I recall you talking about moving Investigation from Perception to Knowledge |
I did, as you can now see in my skill list.
| Quote: | | and having a sort-of forensic investigation skill under Perception. Since said investigators are commonly known as Detectives, perhaps Detection would be a good name for the Perception side of Investigation. |
I reread part of that thread this weekend. No, I never said anything about creating a new Perception skill for forensic investigation. That would be active physical awareness so it would use the search skill to search for physical clues, in RAW and in my game. I can see there being a specialization of search for forensic clues more than an advanced skill.
The investigation skill in RAW is mainly just a bounty hunter skill (find and gather information regarding someone else's activities, and then draw a conclusion about what the target has done or where she has gone). I expand it to not just hunting people but to general investigations, but it is still finding and gathering information, and drawing conclusions. The rest of the primarily information gathering skills are in Knowledge, so moving the investigation skill there was no big deal. What I had said in the thread is that even with me moving it to Knowledge, I would still allow it to also be used like search for noticing clues, at one difficulty level higher than the search difficulty would be.
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Dr. Bidlo
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| Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2022 11:31 pm Post subject: |
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| I have been using Investigation under Knowledge for so long, I forgot it was a Perception skill... same thing as Intimidation under Perception instead of Knowledge. Call it an even swap. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2022 1:36 am Post subject: |
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I've often argued with folks over the whole search vs just base perception to notice things like traps/ambushes etc.. Such as a group running from an enemy, but running in a manner the ENEMY hoped they would, right into some traps they set.
QUITE A few folk i game with, all seem to think that the pcs should ALWAYS be able to roll search in that case, regardless of how fast they're moving, even though it's quite clear that "and are not moving faster than walking (half) speed" is the key..
Or if they're moving at regular speed, they should get 'search' as a REACTION roll, vs an ambush (opponents sneak)... Where as I see it as an ACTIVE skill, that YOU chose to use.. Per is the 'reaction' roll imo.
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Whill
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| Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2022 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Dr. Bidlo wrote: | | I have been using Investigation under Knowledge for so long, I forgot it was a Perception skill... same thing as Intimidation under Perception instead of Knowledge. Call it an even swap. |
I made both of those changes on the day I got Blue Vader in 1992. Investigation is now with the other primarily information gathering skills of Knowledge, and intimidation is now with the other influence skills of Perception. Some here vehemently disagree with us. Oh well.
| garhkal wrote: | | Where as I see it as an ACTIVE skill, that YOU chose to use.. Per is the 'reaction' roll imo. |
We agree on search being the active skill, and Perception is the passive (reaction) skill.
| garhkal wrote: | I've often argued with folks over the whole search vs just base perception to notice things like traps/ambushes etc.. Such as a group running from an enemy, but running in a manner the ENEMY hoped they would, right into some traps they set.
QUITE A few folk i game with, all seem to think that the pcs should ALWAYS be able to roll search in that case, regardless of how fast they're moving |
When you say "argue," do you mean argue the way it is in RAW or the way it should be house ruled? Part of the OP is to resolve confusion in RAW. It's fine to house rule but it is wrong to argue something is RAW when it is not. You've got to keep clear which edition you are talking about...
| garhkal wrote: | | ...even though it's quite clear that "and are not moving faster than walking (half) speed" is the key.. |
That is only "quite clear" in Blue Vader, where this rules quote came from. The R&E rules don't say anything about movement or speed, and as this thread points out, these rules changed between Blue Vader and R&E.
| garhkal wrote: | | Or if they're moving at regular speed, they should get 'search' as a REACTION roll, vs an ambush (opponents sneak)... |
The speed of your movement making a difference does make sense. I'll keep my passive/active model and I think I will just handle movement with MAP rules. Moving cautious speed (half-speed) is a free action, so no MAPs for the Perception or searching if not doing anything else. Moving faster gives you a MAP which makes sense – you have less attention to pay on an ambush whether you are watching for one or not.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2022 3:21 pm Post subject: Re: Passive Physical Awareness |
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| Whill wrote: | | In that thread, you said after thinking about it that you preferred R&E RAW, so I got impression that the "half-search" was a suggested compromise for me. Regardless, good idea. |
Do you have a link? I need to refresh my memory. I know I played around with an expanded version of Search called Awareness, and have also suggested an Advanced Skill that stacks with Perception to increase Passive Awareness, so "preferring" 2R&E may have been tied in with one of those.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2022 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | When you say "argue," do you mean argue the way it is in RAW or the way it should be house ruled? Part of the OP is to resolve confusion in RAW. It's fine to house rule but it is wrong to argue something is RAW when it is not. You've got to keep clear which edition you are talking about...
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Raw. Both 2e and 2e Rev..
| Whill wrote: | That is only "quite clear" in Blue Vader, where this rules quote came from. The R&E rules don't say anything about movement or speed, and as this thread points out, these rules changed between Blue Vader and R&E.
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Just like with Ad&d, if say 2e doesn't say, look in 1e.. So for 2e, if Revised doesn't say, go to the blue cover... That's my general Rule of thumb.
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Whill
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Whill
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| Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2022 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Whill wrote: | When you say "argue," do you mean argue the way it is in RAW or the way it should be house ruled? Part of the OP is to resolve confusion in RAW. It's fine to house rule but it is wrong to argue something is RAW when it is not. You've got to keep clear which edition you are talking about...
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Raw. Both 2e and 2e Rev.. |
But the whole point of this thread is, 2e Blue Vader and 2e R&E contradict each other in this respect. So you can't just say both. In R&E, they made search include passive awareness, so active and passive are always identical in die code for every character. In prior threads, some people have argued with others about RAW and been incorrect. It is in the forum guidelines to not pass off your house system as RAW.
| garhkal wrote: | | Whill wrote: | That is only "quite clear" in Blue Vader, where this rules quote came from. The R&E rules don't say anything about movement or speed, and as this thread points out, these rules changed between Blue Vader and R&E.
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Just like with Ad&d, if say 2e doesn't say, look in 1e.. So for 2e, if Revised doesn't say, go to the blue cover... That's my general Rule of thumb. |
Well, knowing your general rule of thumb does help understand you a little, but your rule of thumb is problematic. For example, it is possible they took out the movement consideration for surprise because they made a conscious decision to not have that be part of the rule anymore in the new system where passive awareness is always equal to active awareness. Maybe they thought, MAPs cover that.
Your system is like assuming that anything missing from one edition that was in the previous edition is automatically an error of omission, and that is not always the case. Besides, you choose to keep passive awareness with base attribute, so that is choosing the old edition over the new edition in the first place. What makes more sense is to just do what you like for your game regardless of which edition it came from.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2022 7:41 pm Post subject: Re: Passive Physical Awareness |
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| Quote: | | Whill wrote: | | Do you have a link? I need to refresh my memory. I know I played around with an expanded version of Search called Awareness, and have also suggested an Advanced Skill that stacks with Perception to increase Passive Awareness, so "preferring" 2R&E may have been tied in with one of those. |
This was older than that. 2019.
https://rancorpit.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=189891#189891 |
Ah, yes. It has been a while. Ultimately, while I like the idea of the Advanced Skill, I think my suggestion of Perception or 1/2 Search (or Awareness, or Notice, whichever one prefers) is simple enough and captures the feel I was going for with the other suggestion.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Whill
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| Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2022 9:25 pm Post subject: Re: Passive Social Awareness |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | I think my suggestion of Perception or 1/2 Search (or Awareness, or Notice, whichever one prefers) is simple enough and captures the feel I was going for with the other suggestion. |
So that got me thinking, should passive social awareness likewise be Perception or 1/2 discernment?
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2022 11:02 pm Post subject: Re: Passive Social Awareness |
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| Whill wrote: | | So that got me thinking, should passive social awareness likewise be Perception or 1/2 discernment? |
That seems a logical progression.
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