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CRMcNeill
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 Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2021 4:50 pm Post subject: Rules for Hand Grenades |
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As I've been working on crossover stats for WH40K grenades, I've come to the conclusion that the existing rules for grenades need to be updated to reflect a few things.-For the purposes of my House Rules, characters use Defense against hand grenades, not Dodge. This is because, as hand-thrown weapons, grenades can be perceived by unaugmented natural senses in sufficient time to react appropriately.
-While it is highly dangerous (as well as generally against regulations, and only something done in movies), "cooking" a grenade (where you release the "spoon" - which starts the timer - then hold it for a second or two before throwing it) is a thing. The net effect is two-fold; 1) gives the target less time to dodge, and 2) makes the grenade harder to throw back before it detonates. The first is already covered by the existing hand grenade mechanics, but the second isn't really clear on how difficult the task should be. My thinking is that the Difficulty for Tossing Grenades Away should at least be equal to the Grenade skill roll of the grenadier who threw the grenade in the first place, with failure meaning the grenade goes off in the character's hand.
-There needs to be a distinction in rules between time-detonated and contact-detonated grenades, as generally speaking, the contact-detonated grenade will be harder to dodge. Probably the best way to represent this is to treat it like a normal grenade, but with a Dodge/Defense penalty applied to the targets. Conversely, there would also need to be additional hazards for the thrower, such as having the grenade detonate prematurely if he fails the throw by a certain amount, or on a Wild 1.
-Somewhat off-topic, but there also needs to be a distinction between hand grenades and launched grenades, as the latter should be much harder to avoid. For my purposes, this is accomplished by making Dodge into an Advanced Skill.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Naaman
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| Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2021 10:32 pm Post subject: |
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Some thoughts:
If the target is out in the open, consider requiring a full dodge to have a chance at completely avoiding damage. Otherwise, a successful basic dodge can get you partial damage (while a failed dodge obviously results in full damage).
A target with cover ("protection") can use regular dodge to avoid all damage, as long as the cover is between him and the blast.
Consider requiring that cooking a grenade takes up some of the thrower's turn, such that he must spend a non-roll (and non-MAP'd) action to first cook the grenade (this may mean throwing the grenade next round in some cases).
For a grenade that was not cooked, as long as the targets have somewhere to go, you could rule that declaring a full dodge automatically succeeds at avoiding damage (but consumes their entire turn, effectively giving the enemy time to do something unopposed). Whereas, if the targets are stuck somewhere, they may get a circumstantial bonus to their dodge representing the few seconds of prep time available.
Also, using a grenade without cooking it could be a way to just force a target out of cover ("protection"): they move (or full dodge or whatever), escaping the grenade without a roll, but at the expense of being exposed to enemy fire.
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Dredwulf60
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| Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2021 7:56 am Post subject: |
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I have hand grenades explode on the following round at a set initiative score based on its fuse.
Typically an initiative score of 5.
Anyone in the blast radius who rolls less than the grenade initiative doesn't get a chance to get out of the blast, but might still roll dodge to reduce damage.
(In the case of frag grenades, due to physics, the shrapnel tends to blast in an upward cone, so laying prone offers some protection)
If you cook your grenade before throwing, I have the grenade roll initiative. If it gets a higher initiative score than the thrower, it goes off be thrown. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16320
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2021 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: | | If the target is out in the open, consider requiring a full dodge to have a chance at completely avoiding damage. Otherwise, a successful basic dodge can get you partial damage (while a failed dodge obviously results in full damage). |
I think the presence of cover/protection would be a crucial component of whether it requires a standard or full dodge. For example, if you're shooting around the edge of a crate and a grenade lands a couple meters in front of you, then it shouldn't take a full dodge to duck behind the crate
| Quote: | | A target with cover ("protection") can use regular dodge to avoid all damage, as long as the cover is between him and the blast. |
Also worth factoring in the modifiers from partial concealment, and the Grenade Difficulty modifier for not being able to see a target.
| Quote: | | Consider requiring that cooking a grenade takes up some of the thrower's turn, such that he must spend a non-roll (and non-MAP'd) action to first cook the grenade (this may mean throwing the grenade next round in some cases). |
That's covered in the RAW, where grenades detonate at either the beginning of the next round (on a 5-second fuse) or at the end of the current round (fuse less than 5 seconds). Applying an action delay of some kind definitely fits for grenades with fixed fuse times; an alternative would be, in a time of high-tech grenades, modern grenades might have a dialable fuse, so you can pre-set when it goes off, and wouldn't need to cook it.
| Quote: | | For a grenade that was not cooked, as long as the targets have somewhere to go, you could rule that declaring a full dodge automatically succeeds at avoiding damage (but consumes their entire turn, effectively giving the enemy time to do something unopposed). |
I prefer to still require them to roll. Maybe give them a "Preparation" bonus of +1D to their Dodge since they could technically be said to have a round to prepare (like what I proposed here).
| Quote: | | Whereas, if the targets are stuck somewhere, they may get a circumstantial bonus to their dodge representing the few seconds of prep time available. |
Like being in a small room when a grenade gets thrown in the door? Depends what sort of improvised Cover is available in the room, I guess.
Could also be a function of where they're stuck, like a foxhole or pillbox being pre-built with a grenade sump.
| Quote: | | Also, using a grenade without cooking it could be a way to just force a target out of cover ("protection"): they move (or full dodge or whatever), escaping the grenade without a roll, but at the expense of being exposed to enemy fire. |
Or try to toss the grenade away, but yeah. I like it. Lots of good ideas here.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Last edited by CRMcNeill on Wed Oct 06, 2021 12:10 am; edited 1 time in total |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16320
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2021 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Dredwulf60 wrote: | | I have hand grenades explode on the following round at a set initiative score based on its fuse. |
Hmm. For the sake of simplicity, I wonder if it might be simpler to resolve the grenade attack before rolling initiative for the next round.
| Quote: | | (In the case of frag grenades, due to physics, the shrapnel tends to blast in an upward cone, so laying prone offers some protection) |
Makes sense, but I'm wondering if that would be the case with all grenade types. If the idea is to represent a system for grenades in general, perhaps it might be better to represent this effect by tweaking blast radius bands and their attendant damage levels.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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CRMcNeill
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2021 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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Something also worth considering for Thrown Weapons in general is how Strength may affect Range. It makes a certain degree of sense for a character with above average Strength or Lifting to be able to put more force behind a throwing action. I realize there are different kinds of strengths in the real world, but the RAW doesn't make that distinction.
So what would be a good formula for increasing throwing range based on the thrower's Strength?
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Naaman
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| Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2021 10:33 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | Something also worth considering for Thrown Weapons in general is how Strength may affect Range. It makes a certain degree of sense for a character with above average Strength or Lifting to be able to put more force behind a throwing action. I realize there are different kinds of strengths in the real world, but the RAW doesn't make that distinction.
So what would be a good formula for increasing throwing range based on the thrower's Strength? |
Hmmm.... I suppose strength could be a factor. However, I see some room for excluding strength from the range, and relying only on the thrower's skill.
On one hand, you have things like the discus throw, which tends to rely on physical strength (but that seems mostly just to lift/handle the object in the first place, the actual throw seems to be all about technique).
On the other hand, you have MLB pitchers that can throw a ball over 100mph (and the faster the ball leaves the hand, the farther it will go).
Similarly, the quarterback on a football team is hardly the physically strongest guy on the team, but he can throw the farthest with the most precision.
I feel like "hurling" an object (even a grenade) might have a strength component factored into it's range, but "throwing" an object would be all skill.
I might make for a trade-off: "you can get more range out of the throw if you 'hurl' it, but you have to forgo your technique/precision to do so," says the hypothetical GM in my head trying to work out how to allow for a strength-based factor in grenade throwing. Obviously, someone with minimal skill but enough strength would use this option, while a skilled thrower could get full range and precision. In this case, I might rule that the character's lifting skill increases the range proportionate to his skill, but he can only roll base dex on the attack roll...
Just the first thing that pops to mind after considering it.
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Dredwulf60
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| Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2021 9:39 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Dredwulf60 wrote: | | I have hand grenades explode on the following round at a set initiative score based on its fuse. |
Hmm. For the sake of simplicity, I wonder if it might be simpler to resolve the grenade attack before rolling initiative for the next round. |
Simpler? Sure.
But to me, that negates the prime benefits of doing it this way:
1) It emphasizes one of the key characteristics of a grenade...the delay.
2) It resolves whether a target is capable of taking an action before the detonation, whether it be to try to dodge/run out of the blast radius, or to try to pick it up and throw it back, or to try to jump on it and absorb all the blast, or any other action. That resolution is based on initiative.
3) It provides the mechanic for 'cooking off' the grenade with it's benefit (higher grenade initiative means less chance of targets being able to act.) as well as the danger involved with the practice (higher grenade initiative means it might have actually exploded before being thrown, or just after leaving the hand.)
Of course I have this enmeshed with other house rules in my game, such as initiative modifiers and talents and techniques possessed by characters and things like that, but that is the basic idea how I run it. |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2021 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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But because of the way the combat round is structured, all actions taken to avoid being hit by the grenade are going to be taken during the latter part of the round in which it is thrown, not the beginning of the next round, in which it detonates. I'm also rather liking the idea of sci-fi grenades commonly being equipped with timer dials so that the fuse time can be adjusted on the fly (which would be a factor in the grenadier's Grenade roll being the basis for the target's Dodge or attempt to throw the grenade away).
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2021 6:04 pm Post subject: |
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As an aside, it's worth mentioning how small group tactics can degrade or negate the effectiveness of grenades against groups, simply by having the group spaced out to the point where a grenade can't target more than one character at a time. This isn't going to work in conditions where the group pretty much has to bunch up (in a corridor or similar situation), but should also be factored in to whether or not a grenade is used.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2021 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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Random thought about the Grenade Deviation Diagram: I wish WEG had made it so that the deviation back toward the thrower happened on a 1, not a 4. Seeing as how 1 is the failure number on a Wild, having the grenade end up closer to the thrower on a 1 just feels more appropriate. If I were to write up my own chart, it'd look something like so...That way, higher numbers on the Deviation roll represent the grenade being further away, representing a "more successful" throwing action.
[/digress]
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2021 2:31 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | As an aside, it's worth mentioning how small group tactics can degrade or negate the effectiveness of grenades against groups, simply by having the group spaced out to the point where a grenade can't target more than one character at a time. This isn't going to work in conditions where the group pretty much has to bunch up (in a corridor or similar situation), but should also be factored in to whether or not a grenade is used. |
Many groups often do that since they also come from ADND games where AOE attacks via spells/breath weapons happen a lot.. Spread out so few get hit.
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That1guy
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| Posted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 4:25 pm Post subject: Re: Rules for Hand Grenades |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | -While it is highly dangerous (as well as generally against regulations, and only something done in movies) |
Based on? In just a quick perusal of my field manual collection I was able to find the following
,,,d. Cook off the hand grenade. (Optional)
Note: Cooking off uses enough of the grenade’s 4- to 5-second delay (about 2 seconds) to cause the grenade to detonate above ground or shortly after impact with the target.
STP 21-1-SMCT 3-37
3-18. To achieve above-ground detonation or near-impact detonation—
(1) Remove the grenade’s safety pin.
(2) Release the safety lever.
(3) Count “One thousand one, one thousand two.”
(4) Throw the grenade.
3-19. This is called cooking off. Cooking off uses enough of the grenade’s 4- to 5-second delay (about 2 seconds) to cause the grenade to detonate above ground or shortly after impact with the target.
FM 3-23.30 Grenades and Pyrotechnic Signals 3-13
...(5) Buddy team #2 moves to a blind spot near the bunker.
(a) One Soldier takes up a covered position near the exit.
(b) The other Soldier cooks off a grenade (two seconds, maximum), announces, "FRAG OUT," and throws it through an aperture.
ATP 3-21.8 Infantry Platoon and Squad J-17
...(1) Throwing Grenades. Two techniques are available for using grenades in room clearing. The preferred technique for Marines is to throw a concussion hand grenade into the room so hard that it skips and bounces, making it difficult for the enemy to pick up and throw back. The skip/bounce technique should be used by Marines during training and combat. The least preferred technique is to cook-off a concussion hand grenade by removing the grenade’s safety pin, releasing the safety lever, counting off two seconds by thousands (one thousand and one, one thousand and two), and then throwing the grenade into the room. Cooking-off the grenade will be used only as appropriate during combat.
MCWP 3-35.3 Military Operations on Urbanized Terrain A-29
The impression I get based on my reading is that while cooking off a grenade is more dangerous than just throwing the thing, it is not so inherently dangerous that it
1) should never be done in any circumstances
2) is against any regulation (the exception being at grenade live fire training ranges where it seems to be prohibited)
3) should only be done under the gravest of emergency circumstances (unlike for example allowing aircraft to drop bombs in close proximity to friendlies without close coordination with a FAC.)
4) is something that only happens in movies (unlike for example pulling a grenades pin with your teeth.)
Also cooking off a grenade is
1) something an average solider is expected to know how to do
2) something an average solider is expected to be able to do successfully while people are actively trying to kill them
How this should translate into rules, I have no idea. I just took issue with the overly general statement. |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:30 am Post subject: |
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Fair enough. I was actually a little surprised to see somebody op-eding that it was a great way to get smacked upside the head by their sergeant and subsequently brought up on charges. I didn't know it was actually mentioned in a manual.
That being said, I think the RAW manages to represent cooking rather nicely, as anyone targeted by a grenade will be reacting against the thrower's Grenade skill roll, and cooking would be a factor there. And of course, there's plenty of room for mishaps on the Wild Die to have bad things happen when cooking grenades.
Thanks for your input.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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CRMcNeill
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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So, what would be some decent rules for targeting enemies with grenades when said enemy is in a confined space, such as in a corridor, small room with one door, or in a trench or foxhole?
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The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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