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CRMcNeill
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 Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:30 pm Post subject: Initiative and Coordination |
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Per the RAW, a group of PCs roll Initiative as a group, with the highest roll counting. This has never really sat right with me, as working together in combat isn't something that comes naturally, and requires training, with each team member watching their area of responsibility.
The closest thing the RAW has to a game rule for teamwork is the Command skill and Coordination rules. It occurred to me earlier today that an interesting alternate rule would be to only allow group initiative if the group has a commander (as in, a character who rolled the Command skill in order to coordinate the group) and is thus able to respond to a threat as a unit, rather than a scratch group of individuals. In the latter case, each character would roll Initiative separately and react accordingly in the combat sequence for that round.
I haven't worked out a concrete rule yet, but at the moment, I'm thinking that the Command skill roll could actually be used to generate a bonus or penalty to Initiative based on whether or not the skill roll beat the Difficulty, and by how much.
Not much else to add at the moment, but I've been playing around with treating starfighter squadrons as single units to resolve larger battles, and it's possible the same rules could be applied to small squads or teams.
Discuss.
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Whill
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| Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 3:33 am Post subject: Re: Initiative and Coordination |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | Per the RAW, a group of PCs roll Initiative as a group, with the highest roll counting. This has never really sat right with me, as working together in combat isn't something that comes naturally, and requires training, with each team member watching their area of responsibility.
The closest thing the RAW has to a game rule for teamwork is the Command skill and Coordination rules. It occurred to me earlier today that an interesting alternate rule would be to only allow group initiative if the group has a commander (as in, a character who rolled the Command skill in order to coordinate the group) and is thus able to respond to a threat as a unit, rather than a scratch group of individuals. In the latter case, each character would roll Initiative separately and react accordingly in the combat sequence for that round.
I haven't worked out a concrete rule yet, but at the moment, I'm thinking that the Command skill roll could actually be used to generate a bonus or penalty to Initiative based on whether or not the skill roll beat the Difficulty, and by how much. |
This concept makes a lot of sense to me, but I'm not sure how to implement it either. SW R&E RAW does Side initiative for ease of gameplay, and many GMs would not bother with individual initiative because RAW is usually sufficient for making exciting action scenes that seem chaotic with blaster bolts flying, that are sufficiently random with the results and don't seem to unfairly favor one side.
Personally, I'm mostly ok with individual initiative. Since I run small group or one player games, individual initiative doesn't usually bog down the game. But there is some caveat. Sometimes individual initiative is only on the PC side. If the NPC side is all mooks (who usually lose initiative against PCs), I will roll initiative once for the NPC group. If the NPC side is a mix of ability levels, like one good character with some goons, then I may roll for the good NPC and then roll once for all the goons. (But then of course each mook is numbered and go in a certain order when their turn in the round comes.) This is all how it is is done in D6 Space, where PCs are individual initiative, and NPCs are individual or grouped accordingly by the GM. But even within that, D6 Space has two options: where initiative is re-rolled every round, or it is normally only rolled at the beginning of the encounter. A major factor for me doing it this way is the fact that I do not re-roll initiative every round, so it is normally only rolled before the action actually begins happening.
I can see having it so that a non-mook side (or a mook/non-mook mixed side) being coordinated be where the full side initiative comes into play for them...
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Not much else to add at the moment, but I've been playing around with treating starfighter squadrons as single units to resolve larger battles, and it's possible the same rules could be applied to small squads or teams. |
Isn't that what combined actions do already, just on a per action level? I can see having rules for units of battle to fully operate as a single unit being useful to some. They probably wouldn't be that useful to me, because large battles are mainly metaplot and settings in my game. PC actions may matter to the outcome of the battle, but the aspects of the battle outside the PC sphere of influence aren't rolled.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 3:37 am Post subject: |
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I have often (in other areas) said the same thing, initiative should be Personal, NOT something that is group, unless someone's coordinating them.
BUT i've seen a @ of players who BALK at that idea, especially when they are large groups...(5 +)
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shootingwomprats
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| Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 8:04 pm Post subject: |
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In my game I use individual initiative for the players, important NPCs and NPC groups.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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| Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 12:37 pm Post subject: Re: Initiative and Coordination |
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| Whill wrote: | | This concept makes a lot of sense to me, but I'm not sure how to implement it either. |
One potentially useful idea would be to apply the Coordination bonus (plus any bonuses/penalties generated by the Command roll) to initiative. This provides an incentive to the group (or at least one member of it) to improve and use the Command skill in combat, since it would provide concrete bonuses to the characters in combat itself. This would also address your concern w/r/t side initiative, with a group of mooks still being treated as group initiative, but penalized to represent their relative lack of coordination.
Also, something I've suggested w/r/t uncoordinated massed weapons fire (as in, a group of thugs who aren't coordinating their fire but are all shooting at the same target) is to treat them as if they were being coordinated, but with a penalty of -1D or -2D. Something similar could be applied to Initiative, as above, in that a group that isn't effectively coordinated may still be able to act as a group, but their reaction and response times will be significantly lower.
| Quote: | | A major factor for me doing it this way is the fact that I do not re-roll initiative every round, so it is normally only rolled before the action actually begins happening. |
I've been playing around with the idea of going with Initiative only being rolled at the beginning of the round, and then only re-rolled on either a successful Tactics roll by the "losing" side or if some major event happens like a character being wounded.
| Quote: | | Isn't that what combined actions do already, just on a per action level? |
Yes, but it's not particularly well written, and I've never heard of anyone applying coordination bonuses to initiative before. Obviously it would rapidly get out of hand with larger units, but if you cap it with squads or starfighter squadrons, it should stay reasonable.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | I have often (in other areas) said the same thing, initiative should be Personal, NOT something that is group, unless someone's coordinating them.
BUT i've seen a @ of players who BALK at that idea, especially when they are large groups...(5 +) |
It makes sense that PCs would balk at a house rule that disadvantages them. Of course the PC with a 2D Perception will want to piggy-back off the guy with 2D Perception. The idea here is that you still allow them to do that, but make it contingent on the group leader's Command roll and (conceptually, at least) how much off-screen training time the group has spent practicing coordinating in combat so that they can do it for real at the gaming table.
The Difficulty for Command to make use of this rule should, in turn, be linked to how well trained and experienced the group is in working together. A squad of experienced soldiers who have been working together for months/years will coordinate relatively easily, whereas a scratch group of a bounty hunter, tongue-tied engineer, a kid and a protocol droid who only just teamed up last week will be a lot harder.
And of course squads of stormtroopers would still be able to coordinate automatically for free... 
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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| shootingwomprats wrote: | | In my game I use individual initiative for the players, important NPCs and NPC groups. |
I'm picturing this as a baseline, then allowing PC groups to use Group Initiative on a successful Command roll.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: |
It makes sense that PCs would balk at a house rule that disadvantages them. Of course the PC with a 2D Perception will want to piggy-back off the guy with 2D Perception. |
ITs more they want LESS rolls, per round of combat, not that it 'disadvantages them unduly'..
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MrNexx
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| Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2021 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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| shootingwomprats wrote: | | In my game I use individual initiative for the players, important NPCs and NPC groups. |
I've also tended to individual initiative, rather than side initiative... it's become the standard in most games, and players with high dice like the advantage.
That said, I've been intrigued by 1e's "Highest skill goes first", but I'd probably limit it to "Highest skill you intend to use goes first, with appropriate MAPS"... if you're going to dodge and shoot, you go on the lower of the two, -1D because you're doing two actions.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2021 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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But “highest skill goes first” eliminates the possibility of surprise attacks. I’m more inclined to what Whill suggested elsewhere, stacking Perception with Dexterity. I’d also allow Mechanical in place of Dexterity for vehicle and starship, and possibly Knowledge for things like Tactics (although I’m not all that certain how the rules would work).
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MrNexx
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| Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2021 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | But “highest skill goes first” eliminates the possibility of surprise attacks. I’m more inclined to what Whill suggested elsewhere, stacking Perception with Dexterity. I’d also allow Mechanical in place of Dexterity for vehicle and starship, and possibly Knowledge for things like Tactics (although I’m not all that certain how the rules would work). |
For surprise attacks, I'd use Perception v. Sneak or Hide... do you NOTICE that you're about to get 1 round of attacks on you.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2021 1:30 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | But “highest skill goes first” eliminates the possibility of surprise attacks. I’m more inclined to what Whill suggested elsewhere, stacking Perception with Dexterity. I’d also allow Mechanical in place of Dexterity for vehicle and starship, and possibly Knowledge for things like Tactics (although I’m not all that certain how the rules would work). |
That's what the surprise attack situation where someone's sneak skill, beats the target's search (If they are actively looking) or Per (if being passive) roll..
If the attacker wins, they get a free attack.
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Whill
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2021 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | MrNexx wrote: | | For surprise attacks, I'd use Perception v. Sneak or Hide... do you NOTICE that you're about to get 1 round of attacks on you. |
That's close to RAW. |
I'm just not a fan of getting rid of actually having to roll Initiative, particularly in combination with things like Concurrent Action Penalties. The randomness of a character being able to win or lose Initiative in spite of a high or low Perception is part of the fun of table-top combat.
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MrNexx
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| Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2021 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | MrNexx wrote: | | For surprise attacks, I'd use Perception v. Sneak or Hide... do you NOTICE that you're about to get 1 round of attacks on you. |
That's close to RAW. |
I'm just not a fan of getting rid of actually having to roll Initiative, particularly in combination with things like Concurrent Action Penalties. The randomness of a character being able to win or lose Initiative in spite of a high or low Perception is part of the fun of table-top combat. |
I use this only for the first round of a surprise attack; after the first round, then initiative takes over. If it's not a surprise attack, then initiative is normal.
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