Brawling , a DEXTERITY Skill?

[Mamatried]

Brawling:
his is a "to hit" skill, and depended on STR for the effective damage.
Howver it is the only "to hit" skill under STR attribute, with all the other "to hit"
skills under dexterity, with the exception of staship gunnery.

Now I am thinking maybe bbrwling and starship gunnery, being "to hit" skills should be
dexterity based.

vehicle blasters is a dexterty skill, a starship IS a vehicle so why not keep all "to hit" skills under
DEX attribute .

Thoughts?

[MrNexx]

Not in favor.

a) it further increases the importance of Dexterity
b) Why would starship weaponry be a dexterity skill? You're using your ship to aim. You're not sitting on a pintile mount aiming your proton torpedos at the Star Destroyer... you're using your targeting computer to point the guidance system at what you want to explode.
c) Brawling is perhaps the only one that makes sense, but brawling also encompasses wrestling, which shouldn't be. I'd also note that switching Brawling to Dex means traditionally tough monsters (rancors, wampas) are less effective, unless you give them a TON of skill dice to make up the difference.
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[garhkal]

I am with Mr Nexx.. As is, Dex is one of the most over important attributes, CAUSE it has so many combat related skills in.. Add all the other combat skills to it, and it just becomes a game of who has the best Dex..

Now on the ship vs vehicle weaponry. As a military guy, i have fired both a pinicle mounted 50 cal (akin to vehicle weaponry) and YES your hand/eye coordination matters.. BUT firing a missile/CWS mount, that is more 'how skilled you are in using the computer, which is Mech.
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[CRMcNeill]

[CRMcNeill]

[Whill]

[garhkal]

[Whill]

[Naaman]

Game balance aside, I tend to think that brawling belongs in strength for fairly obvious reasons.

Other "to hit" rolls require the use and control of a foreign object, going beyond mere hand-eye coordination.

Brawling is purely a bodily endeavor. Dodge is the only "bodily" skill that I can't make an argument for falling into strength. Even running (if you use it other than for balance... that is, interacting with a trecherous surface), is more strength dependent (either leg strength for speed or stamina for distance).

If we want to get "realistic" its worth considering that strength and dexterity are more tightly linked than typical game mechanics seem to suggest.

That is, all forms of athletic training involve bodily coordination developmemt. The more agile you get, the stronger you get even if only as a side effect of doing agility drills. Also, muscles have to be strong enough to pull off certain maneuvers at necessary speeds (consider wrestlers, football players, gymnasts, sprinters, etc). Even power lifting requires complex coordination and timing of muscle groups in order to exert the most possible force on the weight to be lifted.

Lastly, there is an obvious reason why boxing/wrestling/MMA is divided into weight clases.

Size is literally a determining factor in a fight. I've sparred with dudes that were literally half my size (I was 240 at the time, and the most skilled opponent was 125... he was WAY more skilled than I was... took 1st place in the tourny we were training for inhis weight class) but had absoluty no ability to overpower me. Anytime he got ahold of me, I just took my limb back or shrugged him off, etc. He did have a counter for all of my attacks, so it was a stalemate, but it was litterally impossible for him to submit me because he lacked the strength to ovsrpower me and the mass to control me.

Naturally, my strength was highr than his by virtue of the size difference. But mass also matters: when a punch is properly thrown, all of the body weight comes with it. And with size comes reach. A bigger person can hit a smaller person sooner, so any speed advantage that might exist for a smaller fighter is offset by the delay of having to close distance.

I'd say that whatever dexterity contributes to brawling prowess, its far less tha 50%... prpbably closer to 10%, IMO. YMMV.
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[Naaman]

[Whill]

[Whill]

[CRMcNeill]

[Dredwulf60]

I'm in the DEX for Brawling camp.

Reasons:

DEX is a great skill. But I'm not worried that STR would be underappreciated, in combat, considering that STR is literally your survival attribute. ie resisting damage.

In Namaan's example of sparring out of weight class; the faster, more skilled opponent is going to hit often, but without the STR to produce the higher damage rolls, the high-STR (and presumably higher weight class) opponent is going to shrug it all off.

This came to the fore when in one of my games a brawling pit came to be a major part of the sessions for quite a while. It got a bit tedious that all the best fighters, most effective, damaging fighters just had to have their Strength jacked up.

I wanted some light, quick, agile-based competitors too. In addition to skills, one fix, for balance, was making the switch to DEX for brawling. A good fighter was then encouraged to develop both.

I also got rid of Brawling parry as a separate skill. So defending yourself in a brawl remains a DEX skill too, which I feel is appropriate.

Now I can also have a great big mountain of muscle that is slow an ponderous, without also automatically giving him the natural ability to outfight and destroy a slighter, nimble adversary by default.

I like an exchange between the characters played by Dolph Lundrgen and Brandon Lee in Showdown in Little Tokyo:

[Mamatried]

My Reasoning for placing Brawling under DEX, that your strenght is actually 100% irrelevant to hit, now we all know a higher strenght will afford higher damage.
But I would say that no matter your strenght, even if 9D has no bearing on your ability to hit the target, and for that reason I am all for making most "to hit" sills to fall under DEX.

Strength even with less skills is mostly used for damage and resistance, and not an indicator of mobility.

This is why I would say that if you can not hit, you deal 0 damge regardless of your Srtength score.
And I can not see how Strenght is an indicator on yout MOBILITY and MOVEMENT and yout ability actually hit a target.

Dex however is all about mobility, to hit anad to dodge, coveing all you need to "hit" an opponent in brawling, and then after the hit strength is caalulated for damage.