Dice Caps & Dice Floors

[CRMcNeill]

As mentioned elsewhere, one of my on-again-off-again projects is a 1R&E Hybrid system that reverts back to the simpler rules of the 1E while incorporating the improvements that worked in 2E and 2R&E.

One of the biggest obstacles for me is Speed Codes; while I want to keep them, I think rolling dice to generate relative speed values produces a result that's too variable to be an accurate representation of the in-universe reality. Outside of damage or similar factors, engine speeds are going to be pretty constant. Since I'm looking at a hybrid system, it wouldn't be too problematic to port 2E Space Move values back in, and yet I'd like to keep Speed Codes if at all possible.

The only solution I've been able to find makes use of the Dice Cap rule used by the 2E Scale System. For those unfamiliar, this rule places a hard limit on whatever dice rolled when attacking/defending across Scales; if the Dice Cap is a 4, any dice that roll 5's or 6's are treated as 4's (Wild Dice are still re-rolled, but I digress).

So, what I'm considering for Speed Codes is a Cap/Floor System, whereby the pilot/driver still rolls the Speed Code Dice, but there is a minimum value - the Dice Floor - for any dice rolled. In bare bones form...

-When a character / vehicle makes a Move, they roll their Running / Agility skill against the Terrain Difficulty.

-On a simple Success (roll beats Terrain Difficulty by 0-4), the Speed Code is rolled normally.

-For additional levels of Success (5 or more, plus one level for every additional 5 points by which they beat the Terrain Difficulty), a Dice Floor is applied, where any Dice results below the Floor are treated as the minimum Value. If the Dice Floor is 3, any 1's or 2's are treated as 3's.

-Any Lost Moves due to Damage or Injury in turn apply a Dice Cap, where no matter how high Dice roll, they can't exceed the Dice Cap. One Lost Move from Damage results in a Dice Cap of 5; two Lost Moves a Dice Cap of 4, and so on.

Thoughts?
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index

[Naaman]

So wait... in the example given, you roll running as a sort of balance/agility check, and that generates a dice cap/floor for a subsequent roll (the character's "speed code")?

If you are certain you want to get as close to the RAW speed codes as possible it sounds reasonable.

I tried to address this years ago with a different approach:

Vehicles had speed modifiers with maximum performance ceilings.

Using cars as an example, a Mini Cooper might have a speed modifier of +0, while a Dodge Viper has a speed modifier of +15 (or whatever). And, no matter what either vehicle rolls in the speed contest, the result is limited by the cieling. The Mini might have a cieling of 15 or 20, while the Dodge hasa cieling of, say, 45.

So even if the mini rolls a 26 on speed, it gets dropped down to a 20, since it's maximum performance is just that, whereas most drivers cannot access the full capabilities of the Viper (there is plenty of room under its cieling to allow for only pros to wring out everything it has to offer).

The caveat is that some maneuvers or vehicles also have higher base difficulties... so your roll must beat the base difficulty before you are allowed to apply speed bonuses.

Sorry for the long post. Hopefully there is something there that might spark some more ideas.
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[CRMcNeill]

[Naaman]

All of what you're saying sounds good to me... with the occasional exception regarding the below:

[CRMcNeill]

My point is more that a high-performance vehicle can be more challenging to drive than something safer / more sedate. Picture some high school kid with a learner's permit getting behind the wheel of the Viper you mentioned above. The car may well be able to handle in spectacular fashion (High Maneuverability), but that doesn't mean the driver will automatically have the skill to make it happen.

What I'm picturing is separating the Maneuverability from the Operation Difficulty; in order to use the Maneuverability, you have to be able to master the vehicle, and some vehicles are ornerier than others.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index

[Whill]

[CRMcNeill]

Another in-universe example that occurred to me today is pod-racing. Pods are extremely fast and maneuverable, but require literally inhuman reflexes to operate.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index

[Dredwulf60]

My philosophy on this topic:

All craft of a type can travel in the same 'speed envelope'.

I roll speed codes to show relative rates of closure or distancing between the two competing craft on a round-by-round basis, which can vary based on a number of un-defined factors.

In simple terms (stripped down from the additional crunch I use)
A series of boxes in a line like:

[-][-][-][-][-][-][-][-]

I place the 2 fighters somewhere along this positional tracking aide. Each round roll the speed codes. The higher roll advances 1 box for every 5 points over the lower roll.

You can assign the boxes whatever range characteristics you desire. ie each represents 1 space unit. Or each represents a fighter-length or whatever.

Both are assumed to be travelling within the same general speed 'envelope' with regards to the outside world.


As far as skill vs speed:

In my philosophy most of speed is the machine. The pilot's skill really comes to matter only when things go wrong.

So I make speed rolls based on the speed dice.
If a '1' is rolled on the wild die, then the speed roll stands, but the pilot roll his pilot skill and get an equal or higher result than the speed dice or suffer a mishap/ loss of control.

This approximates the young inexperienced driver behind the wheel of a viper. All well and good until they hit a bump.

Pilots have the option to 'drive within their limits' as well.
This is where the pilot chooses to roll no more speed dice than their pilot skill dice. When they do this, the wild 1 does not prompt a mishap/ loss of control.

[Grimace]

[CRMcNeill]

The way I picture it, Dice Caps for combat damage would take precedence over Dice Floors for Piloting Skill.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index

[Naaman]

[Naaman]

[Grimace]

I'm just thinking that you're having the potential for very little variability in the speed rolls.

Let me do an example:

Bob has 8D in Piloting.
He is flying at ship with 3D Speed.
The ship has suffered some damage, so it is capped at 5 for the Speed rolls.

The difficulty of flying through the wreckage is 15.
Bob rolls a 32!
That is +17, or three "levels" increase on the Dice Floor.

So Bob now rolls the Speed of 3D and gets a 3, 3, 3. Since there is a Dice Floor of +3, that puts the minimum the dice can roll at 4 (3 above the base of 1). So instead of a roll of 9, the roll becomes 4, 4, 4. A Total of 12.

Now, instead, let's say Bob rolled 1, 2, 6 (for 9). With the Dice Floor bonus it becomes 4, 4. And the 6 is Capped for damage at 5. So the total is 4, 4, 5, for 13 total.

Now let's use Sam, who has just 4D+1 in Piloting, flying the same vehicle.
Same difficulty of 15.
Sam rolls and gets just enough, 15. So no Dice Floor bonus.
The vehicle is still somewhat damaged, so capped at 5.

Now Sam rolls the Speed of 3D. He gets 3, 4, 6. The 6 is Capped at 5, meaning the total is 12.

Instead, let's say Sam rolled oddly and got 2, 2, 4. No cap limit and no floor bonus means you add them up as normal for a total of 8.

So from a person, Bob, who is highly skilled at flying, to the pretty brand-new pilot of Sam, you have a variance in these examples of just 5 points between the best roll of the highly skilled pilot and the worst roll for the barely skilled pilot.

Yes, the highly skilled pilot will creep a few areas forward, but not in any significant manner.

Is that what you are really intending this method to accomplish? To make highly skilled people pretty close to the same as low skilled pilots?

Even at the best and worst rolls, the highly skilled could still only roll the maximum, in this example, of 15, and the lowest skilled could roll just a mere 4 (can't roll three because then a 1 would be a Wild 1), for a total difference of 11.

For average speed rolls, they're both looking at 9-11 for the roll, meaning there is almost no difference between the opposing sides, even with one pilot having a 3D+2 advantage in Piloting skill.

[CRMcNeill]

[Naaman]