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Naaman
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Joined: 29 Jul 2011
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 Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:44 am Post subject: That doesn't math!!!! :) |
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OEehlggPp0
Watch for the logic used to prove division by zero results as "undefined" (particularly, because 1 =/= 2 at about 5:55 minute mark) and then answer this question:
If 1 x 0 = 0 and 2 x 0 = 0, then why doesn't 1 = 2?
(but the real question is, why isn't multiplication by zero ALSO undefined)?
Is the fact that x =/= y even relevant to the notion of division by 0? |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:25 am Post subject: |
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Did you get hacked?
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Naaman
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| Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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Nope. Did you watch the video?
It's a question about the logic used, not the basics of math itself. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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I went to the time you mentioned, and there was nothing like that at all...
And why are we discussing this on a Star Wars page?
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10436
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 5:56 pm Post subject: Re: That doesn't math!!!! :) |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Did you get hacked? |
No, he didn't get hacked. He's pointlessly trying to "break" conventional math/science on a Star Wars RPG discussion forum.
| Naaman wrote: | If 1 x 0 = 0 and 2 x 0 = 0, then why doesn't 1 = 2?
(but the real question is, why isn't multiplication by zero ALSO undefined)?
Is the fact that x =/= y even relevant to the notion of division by 0? |
No, it isn't relevant. Infinity is a concept more than a number. The reason dividing by zero is "undefined" is not because it always gives the same answer. There is nothing wrong with an operation that always gives the same answer. Dividing by zero is "undefined" because there's always more than one answer or zero answers, and for each division to be useful it is usually expected to produce exactly one answer. Understanding why dividing by zero is considered undefined makes it possible to see why multiplying by zero is not undefined, since the problematic situations that arise from trying to divide by zero do not apply to trying to multiply by zero.
The mathematical proofs would be lost on most here, so let me just give a practical example:
On the Millennium Falcon, there is nothing in Cargo Hold #1 except one crate and the contents of that crate. Also, there is nothing in Cargo Hold #2 except two crates and the contents of those crates. There are zero glowrods in any of the crates (Or if you prefer, each crate has zero glowrods). Does that mean that one crate equals two crates? No, of course not. But multiplying the number of glowrods by each crate gives you zero glow rods in both cargo holds.
Again, there is nothing wrong with an operation that always gives the same answer. Assuming there is something wrong is a fallacy. Multiplying by zero is very easily defined in a way that dividing by zero can't be.
There are all kinds of videos and internet pages that work on faulty logic to seem to arrive at conclusions contrary to those of trained and professional mathematicians. Not being able to grasp the math behind something doesn't mean it's wrong. I suggest leaving the math to the mathematicians. We are not operating under some conspiracy to lead you astray from some truth.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | And why are we discussing this on a Star Wars page? |
Good question. If we want to talk about dice roll probabilities and such, that is applicable math to this Star Wars RPG. I indulged one of these threads but I do not have the time or interest to continue to debunk these. Let us all please remember the forum guidelines to "not spam or otherwise vandalize the forums." We'll all be happier that way. Thank you.
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KageRyu
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| Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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I was really hoping for something like...
"Zero is undefined because only a Sith deals in absolutes."
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cheshire
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Joined: 04 Jan 2004
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| Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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| KageRyu wrote: | I was really hoping for something like...
"Zero is undefined because only a Sith deals in absolutes." |
Oooo... nice recovery KageRyu!
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:49 pm Post subject: |
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"Ten percent of nothing is... let me do the math here - nothing into nothing, carry the nothing - still nothing." - Jayne Cobb, Firefly
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Naaman
Vice Admiral
Joined: 29 Jul 2011
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| Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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 it was just supposed to be a fun thought exercize.
But it appears I have offended.
Consider the question withdrawn. |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: | it was just supposed to be a fun thought exercise.
But it appears I have offended.
Consider the question withdrawn. |
I'm less offended than I was uncertain of the context. Plus, I don't really get hung up on the whys of multiplying by zero. It simply is what it is.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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OuttaWindu
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 26 Mar 2018
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| Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 8:41 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | And why are we discussing this on a Star Wars page? |
Becasue this is the "Miscellanea" subforums and we can discuss anything here? |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:06 am Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: | | it was just supposed to be a fun thought exercize. |
I felt going all 'math professor' and solving it was a little fun, but I also feel a bit guilty like I shouldn't have thought that was fun. I don't feel a lot of these at a Star Wars RPG site would be fun. It would become a chore.
| KageRyu wrote: | | only a Sith deals in absolutes |
If that were true, then Obi-Wan would be a Sith!
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Naaman wrote: | | But it appears I have offended. |
I'm less offended than I was uncertain of the context. Plus, I don't really get hung up on the whys of multiplying by zero. It simply is what it is. |
I would accept that as an absolute. It is what it is. Everything is everything.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 12:33 am Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | CRMcNeill wrote: | | It simply is what it is. |
I would accept that as an absolute. It is what it is. Everything is everything.
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And nothing is nothing?
But yeah, it doesn't matter whether it is a mouse or an elephant; if you have zero of it, it takes up the same amount of room: no room at all.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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KageRyu
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| Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: |
| KageRyu wrote: | | only a Sith deals in absolutes |
If that were true, then Obi-Wan would be a Sith!
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Perhaps he is? This gives much to reconsider on the saga. After all, after trying to kill Anakin, Kennobi engages in a complicated plot to steal his children, turn his son against him, and try to have Anakin's own son kill him. Even when Luke feels there may be good in his father yet, Kennobi's ghost seems insistent that he must be destroyed... does seem fairly dark in that perspective.
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Kytross
Line Captain
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| Posted: Sun May 24, 2020 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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Arithmetic, especially at this early stage, is a language that describes reality. Multiplication is counting how many things you have by how many equal number of groups you have of that thing. Division is counting how many equal groups of items you can make. Either way you are counting something.
If you have two bags with three apples in each bag, then you have six apples.
If you have six apples and divide them evenly into three bags, then you have 2 apples in each bag.
If you have 2 bags with no apples in them, 2 x 0, then you have no apples.
What you can't do is count two apples into no groups, divide by zero. Math is a language that describes reality. If you have two apples, then you have two apples. That's the reality. If you have two apples, then you can't have zero groups of apples. That's either one group of two or two groups of one.
If you want to get rid of the apples, then you're talking about subtraction.
If you want to talk about dividing by zero, you have to leave reality behind.
Luckily for us, math has the capacity for describing the irrational. Irrational math uses the language rules of math to extrapolate things that cannot exist. The classic example is i, the square root of negative one.
Even in describing the irrational, the language rules of math must be adhered to, or you are no longer speaking the language of math. There is no language rule that allows you to describe sorting something into zero groups. |
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