To-Hit Scaling: Rules vs Reality

[Tahlorn]

Saw this somewhat getting discussed below, but I need mroe info on it, been a heated discussion between me and another somewhat stubborn SW gm.

Alright, you have something shooting a character scale thing. The scaling penaltie for hitting is, say, 6d (starfighter perhaps). The starfighter pilot has a gunnery skill of 3d, and there is a fire control of 2d. That is a total of 5d to hit. But, with the scaling penalty, if you take it away from the gunner, he can not physically hit. If you add it to the character, even if the gunner takes a round to aim and the character doesn't move at all, there is a 50/50 chance of hitting. WTF?

This also brings on the whole "sure, you get 24d to dodge the death star, but you can't dodge out of the blast". The little bears on Yavin4 were getting blasted away from the explosions from the walker's guns, even though they were not getting directly hit. Does anyone ahve any rules out there for being within a blast radius of sorts? Treat it like a gernade of said damage (converted to character scale) and reduces at different ranges (again, like a gernade) perhaps?

It just irritates me when one of the long time players sits there with a smug look on his face, because he knows that there is no way the capital ship will be able to hit his starfighter, or the walker will not be able to hit his character, etcetra. Thanks for any feedback guys, sorry if I am asking for info that got posting previously, I jsut recently found these forums.

-Tahlorn

[garhkal]

I do agree, in part with what you say. I mean, the blast of several things, beyond character (like atat main cannons) are listed around 2-3 meters wide. While not that big, neither should they need to worry about hitting the character directly. Even just placing it at their feet should still get them in some of the 'damage' wash.
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[KageRyu]

The first edition of the game did a much better job of handling things of this nature, and the scaling system of the Rules Companion and the 2nd Edition book returns much better results for combat between scales. I have never liked the added dice method.

However, with the situation you describe, a 3D gunnery would be a rookie at best, and such an inexperienced pilot would probably be unable to hit fast moving ground targets of human size from his starfighter. So that isn't really that far fetched.
However, the discrepancy of the difficulty to hit when adding it to the character's dodge as opposed to subtracting it from the Vehicles gunnery is troublesome.

As for vehicle blast radius, a rule in a different game system I played was that when a vehicle weapon was fired at human sized targets, if the roll was within 3 points, they took half damage. This system was based on '10's, so say for Star Wars, for every size larger the weapon is, if it is within 3-5 points (1 difficulty level) of the defenders roll, they take a half damage roll? Might work. In all realty though, Star Destroyers and the Death Star simply can not target individual characters or speeders with their weapons as they are meant for targeting capital ships and planets.
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"There's a set way to gain new Force Points and it represents a very nice system, where you're rewarded for heroism, not for being a poor conductor to electricity." ~Jachra

[Tahlorn]

Hmm...... How about this?

For dodging out of the way, or not getting hit by the original blast directly (if target didn't move and shooter just misses), dodge and to-hit are rolled normally, with the appropriate scaling penalties.

Now, taking what suggested from KageRyu: For every die there is difference in scaling, you must beat those corresponding levels in the difference between your dodge and thier to hit, or else you take half damage from blast wash and/or shrapnel. So, if a character scale is dodging, you must beat a difficulty of the following to avoid half damage:
Speeder: Easy
Walker: Moderate
Starfighter: Difficult
Capital: Better have good skillz man
Death Star: Yeah, right

So this is saying that the scaling bonus for you is to not avoid getting hit, but instead getting all the damage. You still need more than equal skill of the shooter to have a more than a 50/50 chance of getting damaged. This would not come into effect if there is nothing to get a blast off of, such as open space or where the bolt flies past and off into the distance.

How does that sound?

~Tahlorn

[Grimace]

That sounds like a workable solution. I had always sort of inserted an explosive radius on heavier weapons in my games. That way, even if the person dodged the round, if the to hit roll was close, they could get knocked off their feet, slammed to the ground, tossed around, shrapnel in the leg or wherever...that sort of thing. I never really came up with an established system for it, but what you have there looks like it would work.

One of the main reasons that I never latched on to the Revised edition of the rules is the scaling rules. Like KageRyu, I dislike the added dice method and have chosen to stick with the Die Cap rules of 2nd edition. You don't have the problem of rolling ridiculous amounts of dice, and a player is NEVER smug about not being hit by an AT-AT, even if they have 10D in Dodge!

[Tahlorn]

I like the adding dice or subtracting dice for damage when it comes to damage (sometimes you just don't have enough firepower, like a blaster trying to hurt an ATAT), but not for hitting.

I think I will go with what I typed previously, and possibly make what happens a bit more subjective to the situation. Also, what happenes may be determined by how far they missed the added difficulty. As in, if barely missed(1-4), then knocked off of feat (dex roll to keep standing). Next level of missing the difficulty is shrapnel and the like from explosion, and then after that is half damage from getting edge of bolt or right next to blast. This way it is a bit more 'realistic', but still gives the player a fair chance of getting out of harm's way. Gives me something to discuss with the other GM in my group. Thanks all for the feedback!

~Tahlorn

[KageRyu]

Keep in mind that the Star Wars RPG, or the entire D6 system for that matter, isn't really aimed at being Realistic, it's aimed at recreating the feel of Cinimatic Action. The D6 system is intended to be, at times, unrealistic in order to allow players to recreate the type of scenes or adventures that one might see in a big budget action or science fiction movie. Scenes where the hero takes a gunshot, shrugs, and says with a smile "It's just a fleshwound" or "Is that the best you got?". To change these facets of the game system is really to detract from a lot of the fun, feel, ambiance, and charm of this lovely system. Also, as a matter of course, no role playing game can ever be truly realistic, and those that have tried to capture realism in combat dmage and injury have sacrificed fun and playability (anyone ever play Pheonix Command or Living Steel?).

As for Die Caps vs. Added Dice, the Die caps have, in my opinion, won for their ease of use, and reliable results. Using Die Caps, it is unlikely a character scale weapon will inflict any damage on a walker, except possibly an AT-ST if the weapon being used is large enough. The added dice method increases the number of dice rolled (buckets of dice) while allowing for a wildly erratic range of possible outcomes. While the issue of Die Caps vs. Added Dice is really a personal choice, most of the arguments or problems I see being discussed are a direct result of the added dice method, and simply did not come up very often with die caps. This simple fact alone only serves to reinforce my higher opinion of Die Caps.
_________________
"There's a set way to gain new Force Points and it represents a very nice system, where you're rewarded for heroism, not for being a poor conductor to electricity." ~Jachra

[Tahlorn]

[KageRyu]

sigh

in your edited quotes and replies from my last mesage you left out a good deal of what was said to divert attention from several key points.

Lemme refresh your memory:

[Tahlorn]

Ah, very well, sorry for seeing it as a focus soley upon combat, even though (I should ahve noticed this, my fault) that the thread was a combat question. Apologies for misreading/interpretting.

So, if I instead go with die caps rather than adding dice, should I ignore the idea of using a blast effect if the player or similiar target dodges? If so, please explain your reasoning, I am trying to figure all this out and be able to explain it well to the other GM. Thank you for any info!

~Tahlorn

PS: Love your signature!

[garhkal]

I will agree with kage on a few aspects. With the die add/subtract of R&E 2nd, a character using a aimed shot (+1d) from a heavy blaster (5d) is doing the same die damage as a AT-ST has in body (2d) plus scale diff (4d)...

But too many people imo are too used to that system. Which is one of the reasons i llike giving them the option of having me just subtract the scale diff from the bigger guys to hit pool OR do it as listed, adding to your dodge.... Makes things easier doing it the first way, especially when there are more than one scale coming at you..
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[KageRyu]

[Ray]

Think of the AT-ST as a really tall Jeep.

Sure, the shots from a Luger P08 or Walther P38 (9mm Luger) aren't LIKELY to do damage, but there's the chance for a lucky shot that hits the battery or something. It CAN happen.

Just not as likely.

I really like the new scaling system in D6 Space, actually. Rather than have concrete "Scales" to try and dump vechicles into, it's just a straight number based on their size. Thus, despite AT-ST and AT-AT being both "Walker" scale, the AT-ST is harder to hit than a AT-AT.