Attack vs. Aggression

[Jedi Knight Jael Weiss]

I have a funny feeling that this topic has been discussed in depth on previous threads, so if it has I apologize. If not, then here we go...

One of the "raging" debates over the use of the Force in the RPG is the use of the Force for attack. Master Yoda told Luke, during his training on Dagobah, that a Jedi used the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack. However, we have seen extensive use of the Force by Light-Side Jedi for attack (specifically, the movies, but I am sure in your games you have seen it too). I know that the movies specifically are set up differently from an RPG, of course, but I still like to watch the movies from the viewpoint of a GM and say, "This action would require this roll" or "This action would be considered evil," and so on.

The debate seems to be a simple question of semantics. By Yoda saying "attack" in Episode V, a GM could make the argument that using the Force in any kind of manner to bring harm on another, even if it is in defense of others, would garner a Dark Side Point (example: A Jedi uses the Force to levitate a rock and aim it at the head of an outlaw that is about to blast an innocent would, in the strictest sense of the rules, gain a DSP even though he was using it for the greater good). However, what if he would have used the word "aggression"? To me, the difference between attack and aggression would be enough to give the Jedi some more leeway when it comes to what the Jedi can do. A Jedi that uses Lightsaber Combat could still attack his enemies, as long as he was not the instigator or the aggressor.

Basically, that is how I run my games. Overall, I have no problem with my Jedi Knights (or In Training) using the Force for such purposes as long as they can justify that they are using the Force for knowledge and defense, whether it is defense of their own selves, others, the government, etc. In Episode III, for instance, Yoda used the Force directly for an attack on Emperor Palpatine because he was acting in defense of the Republic and trying to eliminate him, not because Yoda was trying to usurp the Emperor and take over himself.

Obviously, there are limits to this. I would never allow a Jedi to use a specifically Dark Side power without gaining a DSP, even if it was for the greater good (I think I posted this on another thread, but I go back to the example of a Jedi who uses Force Lightning to start a fire so he and his friends can survive overnight on a frigid planet. He would still get the DSP).

Just curious to hear your opinions on this. Do you suppose there is a big difference between the words "attack" and "aggression" and do they make that big of a difference in your games?

Again, I have an inkling that I am rehashing an old subject. Please respond at your leisure.

Jael...

Edit: I posted this here because we are talking about a rule in the offical rulebooks. I hope this was the right place to put this!
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"Of the making of books there is no end, and much study wearies the body..."- Solomon

[Endwyn]

I think you have the right idea. I would type more, but this was a recent topic in this thread:

http://www.rancorpit.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=701

About page three is when we all start really addressing this stuff, but the whole thread should give you a wider view.
_________________
Luke, I am your father.
That's impossible!
And Leia is your sister!
That's improbable?
And the Empire will be destroyed by..EWOKS!
That's...highly unlikely.
The Force? Bacteria called midichlorians.
If you don’t take this seriously I'm out.

[Jamfke]

Just speculating here. Maybe Yoda told Luke that because:

1 He knew Lukes family history with aggressive use of the Force.

2 He might have been worried about allowing Luke to use it that way because he felt he had failed in training the old Jedi, (in reference to what he said near the end of the book of RotS.)

Again, just speculating.

[KageRyu]

Throwing a rock at someone's head is the dark side, it can only result in injury, and there are other options and paths available that a Jedi should see. Throw the rock at his blaster to throw off his shot, or knock it out of his hand. Or, better yet, pull the blaster from his hand with the force, thus disarming him.
The situation does not justify the means, nor do the ends justify the means. In a bad situation, when a Jedi acts hastily, or out of desperation, it is serving the dark side just as agression. A Jedi must guard and control his emotions. There may come times when the Jedi needs to choose the lesser of two evils, either risk a dark side point, or let a greater evil go free, but these are the tests and challenges of the Jedi and should not be dismissed lightly.
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"There's a set way to gain new Force Points and it represents a very nice system, where you're rewarded for heroism, not for being a poor conductor to electricity." ~Jachra

[Boomer]

1) They were attacking droids in the prequels. No DSP.

2) In a war type situation, the enemy is devoted to killing and/or destruction. In some cases, kill is the only option for defense, anything else is too slow, and "pacificism" counts as standing by and allowing evil to be commited.

It may not feel great, but if killing one saves hundreds from that one, it is his fault for attemtping to kill hundreds. It is a harsh truth, but a Jedi can NOT allow someone to do evil, just as he cannot do evil themselves.
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My backpack has jets!
I'm Boba the Fett!
And I bounty hunt for Jabba Hutt,
to finance my 'vette!

[Endwyn]

I agree that those factor into the prequel jedi not getting DSP's. It should not however be used as a get out of jail free card. The moment a Jedi starts to develop a disregard for life he has embraced an aspect of the dark side. It is hard to do if you just fight your way out of every situation.

For example, when confronted with a real army, offer them surrender. A jedi is intimidating. If they refuse, only defend yourself at first. Deflect the blaster bolts, possibly go semi-agressive - deflect the shots to disable some of their offensive power without hurting anyone. That doesn't work, perhaps take out the leader (unconscious would be preferred) and more offensive capability. Offer surrender again. Seeing someone do that makes you reconsider surrender.

That is a good example of how a jedi should act. This is obviously one of many possible solutions that ends with little to no death.
_________________
Luke, I am your father.
That's impossible!
And Leia is your sister!
That's improbable?
And the Empire will be destroyed by..EWOKS!
That's...highly unlikely.
The Force? Bacteria called midichlorians.
If you don’t take this seriously I'm out.

[Gry Sarth]

The thing is that not all jedi are so powerful as to be able to do what you just described. Stand there in front of an army just deflecting shots and urging them to surrender, then deflect shots at them and tell them to surrender, then become more aggresive and demand they surrender... most jedi would already have been mowed down by then, and the army would be allowed to go one and seed destruction.

Sometimes a jedi has to act quickly and eliminate the threat before it can overpower him and move against the innocent, that's his duty.

[Endwyn]

I agree that sometimes confrontation is unavoidable, death is unavoidable.

I also agree that inexperienced jedi have less ability with the force and can't do complex force manuevers. I don't think that a lack of ability with the force should be an excuse for limited options. A jedi doesn't have to use only the force, they do have other skills and talents.

Confronting a squad in a war doesn't leave a lot of choices, it is likely that someone or several will have to die. You may even have to kill the entire squad. It just shouldn't be the first reaction to the situation, other options should be considered first.

In a situation that is going to lead to death a jedi should consider other options first, try to avoid it. In this set up, it's pretty clear that options are more limited, but not non-existant. So long as the jedi weighs their options first before acting I don't have real issue with it...unless there were opportunites the jedi neglected completely.
_________________
Luke, I am your father.
That's impossible!
And Leia is your sister!
That's improbable?
And the Empire will be destroyed by..EWOKS!
That's...highly unlikely.
The Force? Bacteria called midichlorians.
If you don’t take this seriously I'm out.

[garhkal]

I agree with Endwyn. WHile i do not stop jedi killing if it is necessary, i do feel they should try other means first, and not just go straight to killing.
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Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk!

[KageRyu]

Ok, I think there was some confusion over the intent of my previous post. I think it was this: