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MrNexx
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 Posted: Mon May 20, 2019 9:15 am Post subject: Star Trek: TNG |
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So, my "daddy gets to control the TV" show has been Star Trek: TNG (I took a detour for Rebels). I'm up to season 5, where it's well into its stride, but sometimes, things will just really jar you... like a computer screen that's obviously a computer screen, with early 90s fonts on the screen.
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MrNexx
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| Posted: Mon May 20, 2019 10:26 am Post subject: |
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Entire ship has their memory erased, and Will Riker immediately hooks up with an Ensign and starts putting moves on the Troi.
And his "This is a trap" face, upon encountering both of them, after memories are restored? That's ACTING, right there.
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Sutehp
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| Posted: Mon May 20, 2019 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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| MrNexx wrote: | Entire ship has their memory erased, and Will Riker immediately hooks up with an Ensign and starts putting moves on the Troi.
And his "This is a trap" face, upon encountering both of them, after memories are restored? That's ACTING, right there. |
Ah yes, Conundrum. I have the sneaking suspicion that episode was written only as an excuse to get Riker and Ro Laren in bed together despite the fact that they...had serious issues with each other. Seriously, Ro thought Riker (of all people!) was too uptight. That's totally messed up.
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Pel
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| Posted: Tue May 28, 2019 11:38 am Post subject: |
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Well, Riker was a bit of a martinet at times. I always liked the character but he could be very rigid when it came to "challenging his a-thor-i-tay". You could always see clearly when Riker had had enough and transformed from easy-going sidekick to wrath of God XO.
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Sutehp
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| Posted: Tue May 28, 2019 1:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Pel wrote: | | Well, Riker was a bit of a martinet at times. I always liked the character but he could be very rigid when it came to "challenging his a-thor-i-tay". You could always see clearly when Riker had had enough and transformed from easy-going sidekick to wrath of God XO. |
That's true, Riker never took s*** from anyone if they questioned or tried to usurp his authority. Damn, but remember Commander Shelby from "Best of Both Worlds" when Picard was captured by the Borg? After she told Riker (her immediate supieror officer) her plan to take on the Borg, he seemed dismissive, but he said he would tell Picard the plan anyway. Instead of respecting the chain of command, Shelby, not trusting Riker to be objective about her plan, then went straight to Picard to tell him herself. Once Riker found out about this, he was pissed.
This also reminds me of something Jadzia Dax said upon finding out that Worf was going to be the first officer on a Klingon mission:
| "Soldiers of the Empire", Star Trek DS9, Season 5, Ep. 21 wrote: | DAX: How do you think the crew's going to feel about serving under a man without a House?
WORF: How they feel is unimportant. All I require is their obedience.
DAX: Spoken like an uncaring, hard-nosed, autocrat -- the quintessential first officer. |
Yup, that's about the size of it.
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MrNexx
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| Posted: Tue May 28, 2019 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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My dad was XO of something or another for most of my teenage years... his office ladies (civilian employees) in New Orleans used to give him so much s*** (with my Mom's full participation). 
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Pel
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| Posted: Wed May 29, 2019 12:59 pm Post subject: |
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Civilians employed by the military enjoy a lot of latitude you'd almost never find in the ranks. Respect is mandatory and lack thereof is a punishable offense.
The Klingons are an interesting example because officers are supposed to assassinate their superiors in a Darwinian promotion scheme. Seems to work for them, though.
Looking at the Trek XO's the only one whose authority wasn't challenged regularly was Kira. Sure, she had a few disagreements with the crew but I'm thinking Space Shaft ran a tighter ship than the rest in that regard. He was also more forgiving of violating regs if it was for a good cause.
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Sutehp
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| Posted: Wed May 29, 2019 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Pel wrote: | | The Klingons are an interesting example because officers are supposed to assassinate their superiors in a Darwinian promotion scheme. Seems to work for them, though. |
They lampshade this in that DS9 episode, "Soldiers of the Empire," that I just quoted. When Worf is about to leave DS9 for that XO assignment on a Klingon ship, O'Brien notes that Klingon Promotion is the standard procedure on Klingon ships. Kira blurts out that that sort of policy is crazy because a naval ship couldn't function if its crewmembers were always trying to kill each other. Dax clears the matter up by saying that an underling can only challenge his direct superior (so, in an extreme example, an ensign or lieutenant can't challenge the captain to take command of the ship) and only under certain conditions (dereliction of duty, treason, cowardice, etc.) where not getting rid of the superior officer would put the ship in danger. So it's not quite as extreme as the stereotype would make us think.
Still a bad way to run a military IMHO, though.
| Pel wrote: | | Looking at the Trek XO's the only one whose authority wasn't challenged regularly was Kira. Sure, she had a few disagreements with the crew but I'm thinking Space Shaft ran a tighter ship than the rest in that regard. He was also more forgiving of violating regs if it was for a good cause. |
Kira was such a badass that some people were probably afraid to challenge her authority. Remember, this was a woman who beat up and knocked out at least two of her own Bajoran deputies while 7 months pregnant when they tried to stop her from getting to the room where a bomb had just gone off and was venting to space just because her friends were in that room. And there are other incidents of her badassery to be found in the franchise, so I'm not surprised no one ever tried to question her authority. It's to Sisko's credit that he and Kira were able to work so well together despite the two of them having such different command styles. But then, Sisko is pretty badass, too. You don't get a Defiant-class ship nicknamed after you with the name Ben Sisko's Muthaf*cking Pimp Hand by the fandom if you're not badass.
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Pel
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| Posted: Thu May 30, 2019 12:13 am Post subject: |
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Did anyone else notice TNG's obsession with saucer separation during the first season? If memory serves it didn't come up again until Generations, but it seemed like every other episode they brought it up in season one.
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Sutehp
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| Posted: Thu May 30, 2019 2:40 am Post subject: |
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| Pel wrote: | | Did anyone else notice TNG's obsession with saucer separation during the first season? If memory serves it didn't come up again until Generations, but it seemed like every other episode they brought it up in season one. |
I only remember it being separated twice in the first season (in the pilot episode with Q and again in the episode with the battle probe and the hologram weapon seller) and they didn't separate it again until "Best of Both Worlds," during the First Borg Invasion of the Alpha Quadrant. That was during the third season as I recall. I wouldn't call twice in the first season "every other episode," myself. But yeah, that saucer separation thing was so hokey, Paramount did seem to go out of their way to show off even though such a thing wouldn't seem to have a practical purpose.
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MrNexx
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| Posted: Thu May 30, 2019 8:50 am Post subject: |
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| Pel wrote: | | Did anyone else notice TNG's obsession with saucer separation during the first season? If memory serves it didn't come up again until Generations, but it seemed like every other episode they brought it up in season one. |
They mentioned it a few more times throughout the series (during the Borg attacks, for example, and I think Ro Laren recommended it sometime in season 5), but they did drop off a lot later. I think, in the first season, they were trying to emphasize what made them different, especially technologically. As TNG became the new normal, they didn't have to do it as much.
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Dredwulf60
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| Posted: Thu May 30, 2019 9:37 am Post subject: |
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| Sutehp wrote: | | even though such a thing wouldn't seem to have a practical purpose. |
I believe it was there to rationalize to some of the developers or to mollify some critics the fact that they had a whole bunch of civilian families aboard.
"How do we write stories where the ship goes into highly dangerous situations....knowing they have a boatload full of children?"
"Uh...how 'bout we make that part of the ship able to opt out?"
"Brilliant! We need to make it known that happens!"
I figure it's not unlike having a snippet of dialogue that says an area has been evacuated before a major super-hero battle goes on in a city. So you can enjoy the carnage knowing that kids aren't being killed. |
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Whill
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| Posted: Thu May 30, 2019 9:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Dredwulf60 wrote: | I believe it was there to rationalize to some of the developers or to mollify some critics the fact that they had a whole bunch of civilian families aboard.
"How do we write stories where the ship goes into highly dangerous situations....knowing they have a boatload full of children?"
"Uh...how 'bout we make that part of the ship able to opt out?"
"Brilliant! We need to make it known that happens!"
I figure it's not unlike having a snippet of dialogue that says an area has been evacuated before a major super-hero battle goes on in a city. So you can enjoy the carnage knowing that kids aren't being killed. |
Thanks. That makes a lot of sense. However, the ship was in danger so often and separation would not always have helped, so I really question why Starfleet Command would continue to think it was a good idea to have families on board. And I question the crew members wanting to keep their families in danger. After a couple years of narrowly avoiding catastrophes, you would think they would have sent their families away for safety.
Ultimately, the saucer separation on Enterprise-D served its purpose when the warp core breached when it couldn't be ejected, so everyone (crew and families) went to the saucer to survive. Saucer separation makes a lot of design sense (I think even the original Enterprise could do it according to lore). I was so happy with the destruction of Enterprise-D. Such an ugly ship. It was an exciting sequence and allowed for a much nicer film ship to replace it.
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Pel
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| Posted: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | [(I think even the original Enterprise could do it according to lore). |
Yup, but the original could only do it once via explosive bolts. None of this separation and redocking business. When Kirk and company separated the saucer they did it for good!
| Quote: | | I was so happy with the destruction of Enterprise-D. Such an ugly ship. It was an exciting sequence and allowed for a much nicer film ship to replace it. |
I never liked the organic look of the Ent D, but did approve of the C version. Regardless, the 1701-E was much cooler looking, although of questionable battle effectiveness. Perhaps that was just sloppy writing...
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Dredwulf60
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| Posted: Thu May 30, 2019 10:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | Dredwulf60 wrote: | I believe it was there to rationalize to some of the developers or to mollify some critics the fact that they had a whole bunch of civilian families aboard.
"How do we write stories where the ship goes into highly dangerous situations....knowing they have a boatload full of children?"
"Uh...how 'bout we make that part of the ship able to opt out?"
"Brilliant! We need to make it known that happens!"
I figure it's not unlike having a snippet of dialogue that says an area has been evacuated before a major super-hero battle goes on in a city. So you can enjoy the carnage knowing that kids aren't being killed. |
Thanks. That makes a lot of sense. However, the ship was in danger so often and separation would not always have helped, so I really question why Starfleet Command would continue to think it was a good idea to have families on board. And I question the crew members wanting to keep their families in danger. After a couple years of narrowly avoiding catastrophes, you would think they would have sent their families away for safety.
Ultimately, the saucer separation on Enterprise-D served its purpose when the warp core breached when it couldn't be ejected, so everyone (crew and families) went to the saucer to survive. Saucer separation makes a lot of design sense (I think even the original Enterprise could do it according to lore). I was so happy with the destruction of Enterprise-D. Such an ugly ship. It was an exciting sequence and allowed for a much nicer film ship to replace it. |
I believe the answer to the families on board also lies in an out-of-universe explanation.
They were about to launch the first Star Trek series since the original...which had been cancelled. I'm sure someone in the production team was thinking about storylines. The idea of having families on board theoretically opened up more story lines.
The concept of Picard not liking children, which seemed like it was going to be a major part of his character....and just fell more or less to the wayside. It was also a reason to have Wesley Crusher boy-genius on board.
I agree that they soon found that the family angle didn't really need to come up much when you are exploring the galaxy....and actually makes very little sense, saucer-separation or no, in a lot of the Enterprise missions.
And yes, the Constitution class (Refit to Enterprise Class) had saucer separation in an emergency...but it was done by explosive device in the connecting structures...so it was a one-and-done.
(At least according to Mr Scott's Guide to the Enterprise. C 1987 ) |
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