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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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Joined: 07 Apr 2017
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 Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 10:00 pm Post subject: The Nature of Hyperspace |
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Most people think of time and distance as constant, but in real life, time has been proven to be varied in a gravity field. First there was Einstein, but that was only a theory (that no one has ever disproved). But there have been experiments made where the two atomic clocks, set with the exact same time, are separated. One stays on Earth. The other goes into orbit. And, the atomic clocks are off when compared. This seems to support Einstein's theories.
We have to think in terms like that when we are considering Hyperspace. It is a realm where distance and time are relative. The distance it takes light to travel in a year can be transversed in perceivably no time at all in Hyperspace.
I say all this because I had a discussion with a player yesterday at lunch where we discussed Star Wars and Hyperspace, and he couldn't quite wrap his head around the idea that, in Hyperspace, it may take longer to travel a shorter distance.
Hyperspace is about obstacles more than anything else.
Avoiding obstacles in hyperspace is what takes time. It takes time (and good data) to calculate coordinates around those obstacles before you make the jump to Hyperspace and that destination. AND, it takes time in that snaky tunnel burrowing through Hyperspace to travel around obstacles.
Thus, if you know an obstacle free route from the Core to the Rim, then you will get there in less time than if you take a trip from one planet to another in the same sector, where that route is crowded with obstacles.
Some people don't understand that, mainly because it's not our experience down here on Earth. When we travel from point A to point B and C, it always take longer to get to the longer point.
To put it in real world terms though, think of Hyperspace as you would the Interstate freeway system vs. county roads. You're in City A, and you take a county road to City B. What happens? You have a lot of obstacles. You have speed limits and traffic. You go through small towns. Your path isn't as straight as that of the highway.
On a different trip, you start at City A and you travel to City C, but this time, you take the Interstate, which is relatively a straight, direct trip, with no stops, at a higher speed.
City B is closer to City A than is City C, yet you get to City C much faster than you did City B.
The reason? Obstacles. You had less obstacles, and you got there faster even though your destination was farther away. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16281
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue May 30, 2017 12:05 am Post subject: |
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This is my preferred visual for how hyperspace routes work, as well (I'm a truck driver, so picturing how the interstate, US Highway, state Highway and county roads interact comes naturally to me). It's not a perfect example, but the parallels work well enough.
But let's take it up a notch...
Gravity Waves
If I understand the physics correctly, gravity waves are essentially ripples in space-time caused by the movement of stellar bodies in space. The Honor Harrington series regularly uses them as a plot point because of the specific nature of propulsion in that universe. It wouldn't be a good fit for the SWU, but the concept has other potential uses...
Suppose a gravity wave lies across the path of a hyperspace routes between Planet A and Planet B. In that gravity wave, ships traveling from A to B would get a speed boost going one direction, yet get slowed down going from B to A. It'd be the equivalent of a hill in hyperspace, adding a 3rd dimension to the obstacles. If you know the wave is there (as you would on a known route), a ship could compensate by throttling up or backing down within that field to adjust speed.
Further, suppose that the effect of gravity is also magnified in hyperspace, where even minor shifts in gravity can throw ships in hyperspace thousands or even millions of kilometers off course. It makes WEG's minimum safe jump distance much more plausible because trying to jump to hyperspace along a pre-planned route would not be able to take into account the disruptive influence of the gravity field of the planet / star itself on the course calculations.
Oddly enough, a blind jump (ala Rogue One) would be less affected by this than would a programmed route, since a blind emergency jump would have no calculations to throw off...
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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Joined: 07 Apr 2017
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| Posted: Wed May 31, 2017 2:13 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Oddly enough, a blind jump (ala Rogue One) would be less affected by this than would a programmed route, since a blind emergency jump would have no calculations to throw off... |
A little off the subject, but I don't think that was a blind jump in Rogue One. They knew where they were going. They just didn't finish the Nav Coordinates.
Thus, in (1E) game terms, it was a Hasty Jump.
So, the Jump Difficulty was doubled.
Standard Jump is Difficulty 15. Hasty Jump is Difficulty 30.
Let's say the jump destination that K2 was programing was 6 hours away.
And K2 has Astrogation 5D.
That means that K2 is looking at a 30+ on 5D to make the jump. He can do it, but it's not safe. It's less than a 1% shot. K2 has to roll all 6's on all 5 dice to make it. So, K2 continues to fiddle with the Nav controls, figuring a safer round.
Cassian decides to risk it and takes over. There's no time. Cassian also has Astrogation 4D, but he blows a Force Point to save the day, rolls 8D, looking for 30+, and has a 38% chance of making it. Rolls, and gets lucky. The H-Wing makes it to hyperspace. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16281
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed May 31, 2017 2:50 am Post subject: |
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That doesn't take into account the added difficulty of jumping while deep inside a gravity well. If the modifiers from Wanted by Cracken are accurate, you're looking at a minimum +30 modifier, and that's before the x2 for the hasty jump.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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| Posted: Wed May 31, 2017 9:27 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | That doesn't take into account the added difficulty of jumping while deep inside a gravity well. If the modifiers from Wanted by Cracken are accurate, you're looking at a minimum +30 modifier, and that's before the x2 for the hasty jump. |
Still quite possible if you consider that Cassian uses a Force Point (he must have) and that he pulled off a hell of a roll during that scenario.
Standard Duration is 15. Add 30 for gravity well. That makes 45.
K2 is going through standard procedure, altering the coordinates, making the jump easier. He's removing points from the difficulty and adding hours to the trip.
I'm sure that K2 picked a well known destination for the escape as that's the lowest time requirement for calculations: about a minute*.
Don't forget that K2 is also piloting the ship, so if the droid shepherds the ship into Hyperspace, he'll do it at -1D to his Astrogation for the multiple actions.
Let's say that K2 gets the difficulty to 20 (adding 25 hours to the trip).
K2 has 5D Astrogation, but rolling 4D due to the multiple action. That gives him a 5% chance of success.
But, not for Andor. And, time is running out.
Andor takes over, blows the Force Point, and makes the Hasty Jump.
This doubles the Difficulty from 20 to 40. Let's say Andor also has Astrogation 5D (I figure he doesn't have more than K2). He rolls 10D, looking for 40+, which is a 20% shot.
It's a miracle. The Force was With Him. He rolled 41.
And, that's an exciting game!
*Since the Cracken rule says it is impossible to make Hyperspace if at 6 Space Ranges or closer to a planet, we really don't know how long it took K2 to adjust the coordinates. I bet K2 was working on them from the moment of lift off, before he picked up Cassian and the others--so, it's several minutes. That would makes sense.
And, now, we have two instances where ships do enter and exit hyperspace close to gravity wells: Cassian's Hasty Jump in Rogue One, and Han's jump through the planetary shield at Star Killer base.
So...there is an exception to the no-jump rule needed for the game. A rule that hasn't been written yet.
The question is: How do we fairly implement that rule?
There should probably be a minimum Difficulty for jumping from a Gravity Well so that Astrogaters can't just fiddle with the coordinates and get the Difficulty to 0, as can be done with normal Hyperspace Jumps. |
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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| Posted: Wed May 31, 2017 9:45 am Post subject: |
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| Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote: | | There should probably be a minimum Difficulty for jumping from a Gravity Well so that Astrogaters can't just fiddle with the coordinates and get the Difficulty to 0, as can be done with normal Hyperspace Jumps. |
Maybe the +30 modifier cannot be lowered if jumping from a gravity well.
So, for a standard duration trip, the difficulty would be 45, which can be lowered to 30 and no farther.
That way, it does take a miracle to jump from a gravity well. A Force Point must be blown, or an Astrogater of phenomenal skill must be used (and even he would have a low chance of success).
Still, this doesn't address the "no jump possible" in the 0-6 Space Ranges from a gravity well. Cassian's H-Wing is definitely in the 0 Range as shown in the film.
What's the work-around? What makes is very hard, but possible, to make the jump from 0-6 Space Ranges?
Add +10 to the minimum difficulty, so that it is 40 (doubled to 80 for a Hasty Jump)? Which would mean that Cassian Andor has one hell of an Astrogation code.
Thoughts? |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16281
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed May 31, 2017 10:20 am Post subject: |
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Why are you discussing this here when you just replied in the topic entitled Blind Hyperspace Jumps? Rather than saying "a bit off topic", just move it to the proper topic.
And the ship in Rogue One is a U-Wing, not an H-Wing.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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| Posted: Wed May 31, 2017 10:32 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Why are you discussing this here when you just replied in the topic entitled Blind Hyperspace Jumps? Rather than saying "a bit off topic", just move it to the proper topic. |
Proper Topic would be to start a new thread.
It's as welcome in a topic about Hyperspace as it is one about Blind Jumps.
Besides, threads bend with conversation.
| Quote: | | And the ship in Rogue One is a U-Wing, not an H-Wing. |
Finger flub. Meant "H" Wing. |
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Bren
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Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Wed May 31, 2017 10:43 am Post subject: |
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| Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote: | | Quote: | | And the ship in Rogue One is a U-Wing, not an H-Wing. |
Finger flub. Meant "H" Wing. |
Your fingers still seem to want to hit that "H" key.  |
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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| Posted: Wed May 31, 2017 11:14 am Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote: | | Quote: | | And the ship in Rogue One is a U-Wing, not an H-Wing. |
Finger flub. Meant "H" Wing. |
Your fingers still seem to want to hit that "H" key. |
LOL! I'm a mess!  |
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Wed May 31, 2017 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote: |
And, now, we have two instances where ships do enter and exit hyperspace close to gravity wells: Cassian's Hasty Jump in Rogue One, and Han's jump through the planetary shield at Star Killer base.
So...there is an exception to the no-jump rule needed for the game. A rule that hasn't been written yet.
The question is: How do we fairly implement that rule?. |
Personally i feel that they were done just for SCREEN "wowing" not as a means to show that all ships can do it.. Otherwise why didn't the falcon jump to hyperspace right after blasting off from Mos Eisley when he ran into those ISD's in space?
And the TFA showing of him coming out, maybe that's cause it was set in the future where that tech now exists..?
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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| Posted: Wed May 31, 2017 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote: |
And, now, we have two instances where ships do enter and exit hyperspace close to gravity wells: Cassian's Hasty Jump in Rogue One, and Han's jump through the planetary shield at Star Killer base.
So...there is an exception to the no-jump rule needed for the game. A rule that hasn't been written yet.
The question is: How do we fairly implement that rule?. |
Personally i feel that they were done just for SCREEN "wowing" not as a means to show that all ships can do it.. Otherwise why didn't the falcon jump to hyperspace right after blasting off from Mos Eisley when he ran into those ISD's in space?
And the TFA showing of him coming out, maybe that's cause it was set in the future where that tech now exists..? |
Yeah, I think it should be possible, as shown in the new films, but very hard to pull off, or it would have shown up earlier.
I think a Force Point is necessary. |
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Naaman
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| Posted: Wed May 31, 2017 8:12 pm Post subject: |
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FWIW, I just think of hyperspace as litereally the same physical space that is designated for FTL travel. There are no physics involved in my interpretation other than the ships moving very fast through a pre-designated route OR a "new" route that is calculated using interstellar commuinications tech that sends current and developing route conditions to the computer, and when the path is clear, the system give the nav computer the "green light."
Gravity wells and obstacles are part of the calculation. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16281
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 8:08 pm Post subject: |
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So, a thought occurred to me with regard to this...
Short version, it may actually be possible for a ship in hyperspace to fly "through" an object that is in realspace.
Here's my rationale:Hyperspace is a separate dimension from realspace, and ships present in one are not physically present in the other.
The only exception to this rule is gravity, which carries across the dimensional barrier. In WEG material, this is called a mass shadow. The larger a ship or object is, the larger its mass shadow will be in the dimension other than that which it currently occupies.
But - and this is key - ships are also equipped with acceleration compensators, which absorb the effects of acceleration and deceleration to protect the occupants.
As such, if an object's mass shadow (gravitic signature) is small enough, a ship passing "through" it (or being passed through) in the other dimension will be shielded from the gravitic effects by its own acceleration compensators.
Any hyperspace "collisions" (i.e. an object in hyperspace colliding with an object in realspace) will actually be mass shadow intersections, gravity shear happening at hundreds of times the speed of light, with enough energy delivered to override the ability of the ship's acceleration compensator to absorb the sudden gravity shock.
Of course, this will only work if the ships and/or objects involved are small enough to have either a minimal mass shadow, or of sufficient power to absorb the gravitic effects of the impacting mass. Thoughts?
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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MrNexx
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| Posted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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To an extent, I sort of figure that's assumed. Consider Hoth, which had a sizable and dense asteroid belt in it. The Imperial Fleet was able to bypass it in hyperspace (coming out of hyperspace too close to the planet), so, presumably, they were able to pass through the asteroids without damage, unless they had to plot a funky course.
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