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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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 Posted: Sat Sep 28, 2019 2:01 am Post subject: Alternate Scenes That Fix Plot Holes |
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Have you ever been hit with a thought as to how a change in dialogue would've smoothed over an obvious plot hole in the films? I've been thinking about one lately...Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father!"
Obi-wan Ghost: [Long Pause] "I was going to. On the day I gave you his lightsaber, I had intended to tell you the truth. But in that moment, I felt the most powerful premonition through the Force, that it was not my place to speak of it. And so, I kept my peace. I had thought to tell you again before you faced Vader, and yet again the Force prompted me to keep silent. So I told you what I could, and hoped it would give you the strength you needed."
Luke: "But why? Why keep something so important from me, just when I needed to know it the most?"
Obi-wan Ghost: "Luke... near the end, the Jedi Order had rules for everything, all built up over a thousand generations with the intention of guarding our minds against the Dark Side. But in the end, all of our rules, all our ways, could not save us from our downfall. When Yoda and I went into exile, we committed to a life of contemplation, of seeking only the will of the Force. You can't imagine how troubling it was, to sit idly by while the galaxy fell under the sway of the Empire, to feel one by one the deaths of our old comrades as the Emperor and his minions hunted them down. And yet, the Force told us it was not our place to act. And so, we watched, and we waited, and we trusted in the Force. And we learned that trusting in the Force does not require that you know the reasons why, just that you believe. I can't tell you why you were not supposed to know; even in this state, my knowledge has its limits. You have learned to feel the Force flow, to trust it, even when you don't know where it leads you. I am sorry for the hurt done to you, but I trust that the Force was guiding you to your destiny. To face the one who was once your father."
Luke: "Was?"
Obi-wan Ghost: "Your father was seduced by the Dark Side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker, and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father, was destroyed."
Luke: "There is still good in him." This is mostly just a late night rambling of a concept that I've had on my mind off and on for a bit. I can't help but feel that something like this, where the ultimate lesson is in trusting in the Force even in the absence of certainty, makes for a better solution to the "don't tell him Vader is his father" than the flimsy justification Obi-wan hung on it after the fact.
Thoughts? Edits? Suggestions? Got a scene re-write of your own to share?
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griff
Captain
Joined: 16 Jan 2014
Posts: 507
Location: Tacoma, WA
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| Posted: Sat Sep 28, 2019 9:36 pm Post subject: |
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Palpatine "he could even convince the medicolines to create life"
How it should have been;
Palpatine "he could even convince the medicloines to create life. That is how I created you, Anakin"
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"EXECUTE ORDER 67. Wait a minute, that doesn't sound like order 67..... No, wait. Yes, yes it does. EXECUTE ORDER 68" Palpatine's last moments - robot chicken. |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 12:59 am Post subject: |
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With a 'force like that', i'd wonder, WHY Put faith in it?
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16320
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 10:40 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | With a 'force like that', i'd wonder, WHY Put faith in it? |
There are hints dropped throughout the series that the Force has a will of its own, and that tragedies like the rise of the Empire are necessary steps to whatever long-term goal (for lack of a better word) the Force is pursuing. Even if the goal is simply “bring balance” and the Empire was an unfortunately necessary step to that, then Yoda and Obi-wan taking steps to stop it would’ve been against the will of the Force. Now, suppose that Yoda and Obi-wan, as part of their exile, decided a return to first principles was necessary, of stripping away everything but a focus on the Force, and the Force alone. In such a place (psychologically speaking), if the Force did not want them to interfere, then they would sense that, if not necessarily why.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10436
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 1:37 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Darth Plagueis was a Dark Lord of the Sith, so powerful and so wise he could use the Force to influence the midichlorians to create life… |
| griff wrote: | Palpatine "he could even convince the medicolines to create life"
How it should have been;
Palpatine "he could even convince the medicloines to create life. That is how I created you, Anakin" |
Lucas said he intentionally left it ambiguous as to how exactly Anakin was created and who a male progenitor might be, if there was one. I take it you are not a fan of the ambiguity. I appreciate that, but I don't know if that is really a plot hole. A plot hole is more if a character in a movie kept telling another character, "Later when we are alone, I need to talk to you about your father" and then the talk never happens.
Was Plagueis some kind of male progenitor for Anakin? Was it Palpatine? This scene suggests it might be Plagueis or someone who learned the power from him. What is apparent in the films is that Anakin had Obi-Wan who was both "like a father" and a brother to Anakin, and then Anakin also had Palpatine as a mentor. So Anakin had a good (but not perfect) father figure, and an evil father figure.
Lucas allowed author James Luceno to be more detailed in his Darth Plagueis novel where Darth Plagueis and his apprentice Darth Sidious where working experiments with the Force for years. IIRC they were trying to bring about some prophesied Sith messiah and they felt progress was being made. Suddenly about 10 years before TPM they experienced a backlash in the Force that put a hard stop to all further work down that avenue. Of course, that happened at the time Anakin was conceived or born, but Plagueis and Palpatine didn't know that. So the suggestion is that Plagueis and Palpatine are both "fathers" of Anakin, in a way. At the end of TPM, Palpatine realized Anakin was the result of that experiment. That is classified as Legends now.
In that RotS opera scene, Palpatine hadn't yet revealed himself to be a Sith or Force user. He was talking about Plagueis as if it was the story of an old legend, not his master. They were in public, and that would have been a big leap to go straight to "I made you" at that point, even if it were true. The reveal of Palpatine as the Sith Lord comes later in the movie.
Also, if Palpatine were Anakin's father, that would make Rey and Ben kissing cousins (half-cousins once removed?). But I guess that is not as bad as kissing your twin brother.
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Voltron64
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Joined: 18 Nov 2014
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| Posted: Sat Feb 22, 2020 10:36 pm Post subject: |
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Basically a way to have Han still shoot first despite later re-characterization by Lucas and others.
| Quote: | So, if we were to remake the entire Star Wars series, knowing what we know now... how do we handle Han/Greedo?
A problem: we need to establish a story thread so we can show the audience who Greedo is. But the story is already multiplying threads by this point. We've got the Leia/Vader branch, and the Luke/Threepio branch. Can we afford to add a Han/Greedo branch?
Maybe what we do is graft Greedo onto the Luke branch instead. Here's the thing: we know that Vader will use bounty hunters from ESB. There's even a non-human Imperial informant in Mos Eisley who sets the Stormtroopers on the trail of the droids. Greedo is Jabba's man, but there's no reason he can't turn a buck tracking down dissidents. And it's that trail where he demonstrates he's a remorseless killer.
OK. Why is Han on Tatooine? The planet's not friendly for him. But he wants to turn a buck too. So he's come to the planet on the promise of contraband droids and salvage - something Jawas are good at gathering. But the agent's a no-show, so he despairs, goes drinking, and meets an old Jedi who knows an easy mark when he sees one. This is where we enter the story, and all we need is a line, "My Jawa clients were a no-show". Then Greedo enters, going, "I've been watching you all evening. There's a big bounty on your passengers, and they're looking for a quick way off world. And I knew you'd be the man to give it to them, because you were waiting for Jawa contraband, and hey, I just killed a whole lot of Jawas. Had Stormtrooper help. Anyway, I've pointed the stormtroopers at Obi-Wan, and now I'm gonna take your smouldering carcass in to Jabba. I'm getting paid twice. What a day!"
Something like that. |
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Scots Dragon
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 03 Mar 2017
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Location: A Wee Rainy Island
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| Posted: Sat Feb 22, 2020 10:46 pm Post subject: |
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Honestly, it can be summarised extremely well; Han shoots first and it's not out of character at all, because his life was being threatened.
And there's a good quote I like to use in these situations;
| Sir Terry Pratchett wrote: | Something Vimes had learned as a young guard drifted up from memory. If you have to look along the shaft of an arrow from the wrong end, if a man has you entirely at his mercy, then hope like hell that man is an evil man. Because the evil like power, power over people, and they want to see you in fear. They want you to know you're going to die. So they'll talk. They'll gloat.
They'll watch you squirm. They'll put off the moment of murder like another man will put off a good cigar.
So hope like hell your captor is an evil man. A good man will kill you with hardly a word. |
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Narmer
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Location: Washington, the State not the City
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| Posted: Sat Feb 22, 2020 11:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Scots Dragon wrote: | Honestly, it can be summarised extremely well; Han shoots first and it's not out of character at all, because his life was being threatened.
And there's a good quote I like to use in these situations;
| Sir Terry Pratchett wrote: | Something Vimes had learned as a young guard drifted up from memory. If you have to look along the shaft of an arrow from the wrong end, if a man has you entirely at his mercy, then hope like hell that man is an evil man. Because the evil like power, power over people, and they want to see you in fear. They want you to know you're going to die. So they'll talk. They'll gloat.
They'll watch you squirm. They'll put off the moment of murder like another man will put off a good cigar.
So hope like hell your captor is an evil man. A good man will kill you with hardly a word. |
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Monologue to the rescue! |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:02 am Post subject: Ma klounkee! |
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| Voltron64 wrote: | Basically a way to have Han still shoot first despite later re-characterization by Lucas and others.
| Quote: | So, if we were to remake the entire Star Wars series, knowing what we know now... how do we handle Han/Greedo?
...
Something like that. |
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This is an option for people that actually care to incorporate Lucas' revision of the Greedo scene into their head canons. I personally see Greedo as a mook thug for Jabba who only thought he was going to move up in the gangster world but failed miserably.
Have you seen the 4K version of ANH or the YouTube video of this scene from it? It had much simpler option than all of that is to simply have Greedo say "This will be the end of you" to Han before they fire. If you know that translation it's even more clear Greedo intends to shoot him, and the Huttese words for that sound funny.
But the bigger issue is the re-characterization of Han. There is no need for that so the best solution is to just ignore it and remove Greedo's shot. In the original version, there were no blaster shots shown at all, not even Han's. Han says, "Yes, I bet you have" and the camera shows a cantina alien's face turn as you hear a blaster blast, and then see a cloud of smoke before Greedo falls over dead. The original version was somewhat ambiguous because it didn't show any shots. We don't know for sure that Greedo didn't fire - We only know that Han did and hit his mark.
If your version of the film only has a revised version and it bothers you, the easy solution I found is to simply blink. The blaster shots only appear for a second so it is literally "blink and you'll miss it". When I first watched the blu-ray version I sneezed in the Greedo scene, and as you know it is impossible to keep your eyes open when sneezing. I had sneezed at exactly the right time to miss the shot of the blaster shots. So my suggestion to recreate the original version of the scene is to just blink after Han says, "Yes, I'll bet you have."
What is wrong with Han shooting first in the first place? Greedo was obviously going to kill him in all versions when Greedo says "That's the idea" in response to Han saying "Over his dead body," And then Greedo says he has been looking forward to this for a long time. And it paints Han as more of a rogue. For first time viewers it is vital to not ruin the Greedo scene because you really don't know that Han is going to come back at the end and save Luke in the Death Star trench so he can make the shot. For that reason, I don't think first time viewers of ANH should watch Solo before that because Solo does show that Han is really a good guy, but he still shoots first anyway.
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Last edited by Whill on Sun Feb 23, 2020 6:21 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Voltron64
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| Posted: Sun Feb 23, 2020 5:15 pm Post subject: Re: Ma klounkee! |
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| Whill wrote: | | For first time viewers it is vital to not ruin the Greedo scene because you really don't know that Han is going to come back at the end and save Luke in the Death Star trench so he can make the shot. For that reason, I don't think first time viewers of ANH should watch Solo before that because Solo does show that Han is really a good guy, but he still shoots first anyway. |
True, but I'm always figure chronological release as the preferred viewing order. |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Sun Feb 23, 2020 6:21 pm Post subject: Re: Ma klounkee! |
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| Voltron64 wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | For first time viewers it is vital to not ruin the Greedo scene because you really don't know that Han is going to come back at the end and save Luke in the Death Star trench so he can make the shot. For that reason, I don't think first time viewers of ANH should watch Solo before that because Solo does show that Han is really a good guy, but he still shoots first anyway. |
True, but I'm always figure chronological release as the preferred viewing order. |
It is my personal preferred viewing order, but it is not necessarily the best first time viewing order, especially for younger children.
You should check out this thread and chime in there.
https://rancorpit.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7646
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Voltron64
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| Posted: Sun Feb 23, 2020 6:24 pm Post subject: Re: Ma klounkee! |
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| Whill wrote: | | Voltron64 wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | For first time viewers it is vital to not ruin the Greedo scene because you really don't know that Han is going to come back at the end and save Luke in the Death Star trench so he can make the shot. For that reason, I don't think first time viewers of ANH should watch Solo before that because Solo does show that Han is really a good guy, but he still shoots first anyway. |
True, but I'm always figure chronological release as the preferred viewing order. |
It is my personal preferred viewing order, but it is not necessarily the best first time viewing order, especially for younger children.
You should check out this thread and chime in there.
https://rancorpit.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7646 |
I think I meant release date, not in-universe chronological. Sorry for the confusion. |
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