1st ed combat

[klhaviation]

One major difference is the combat system.

1st ed uses no initiative. All actions happen simultaneously... if one action effects another [e.g. if two characters shoot at each other at the same time] who ever rolls the higher skill roll is judged to have gone a split second earlier.

Multiple actions ocurr in later action segments. E.g. if you fired three times. And another character moved and fired. The first action phase would include your first shot.. and the characters movement... the second both shots.

Dodges are all "full dodges" meaning that you always add your dodge roll to the fires difficulty. However, each dodge counts for only 1 action segment. If you are shot at 3 times by the same person ... you have to make 3 dodge rolls, with a 1d penalty for each additional action .

This was cleaned up a bit in the rules upgrade pamphlet, adding the concept of comeat dodes and doING away with comeat segments... rules companion got really crunchy.

I prefer the original combat system as it is very interpretative... but some don't like it.

I think rules upgrade is a good compromise however between 2nd ed combat and 1st ed combat.

It is worthy to note that the starship combat system is one of the finest ever.

[Whill]

Comeat dodes? Comeat segments? lol

I think calling all dodges "full dodges" is misleading. Dodges were dodges. Yes, every dodge added to the difficulty instead of replaced it. That's just the way reactions were done back then, and they didn't have full dodges. They were reactions and maps applied.
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[cheshire]

Thanks for breaking this down. I'm currently being an eBay vulture, circling round looking for a low price on a dying auction, in hopes of getting a cheap 1st edition rulebook and sourcebook.

I'm glad to have a few things to look out for as I read through the rules.
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Before we take any of this too seriously, just remember that in the middle episode a little rubber puppet moves a spaceship with his mind.

[Whill]

[klhaviation]

Yeah, I'm still trying to figure out how to type on these touch screens...

[cynanbloodbane]

[jawa1138]

I just won an auction with some first edition books, if you are still looking let me know.

[Lord Zash]

Hi guys!

I just presented myself in the other forum. I found this post (I know is quite old) because I thought it'd be the most adequate. If it's wrong, please let me know.


Right, I don´t get (very) First Edition Combat. I've read it through several times and spent hours on internet looking for examples (including this forum) and there is still something that doesn´t connect there.


I am really confused by the order of things, dodges and multiple actions. The other day I run a game, was loads of fun... but it felt extremely easy on the players so I thought I must be doing something wrong.




Right, example.

2 guys in a corridor (Good & Bad). Both got blaster skill 4D+1, dodge skill 4D, they got a blaster pistol each, they are at short range. They just happened to be there (no surprise, ambush) they encounter each other and star shooting.


Looks a bit like this:

-------------------------------------------------------------------
(G) -> short distance <- (B)
-------------------------------------------------------------------


COMBAT ROUND 1)

To keep it superbasic, the player says wants to fire twice. Myself controlling the bad guy say the same.

So 2 declared action each: Fire (blaster pistol at short range which has a base difficulty of 10). Penalty comes in as there is 2 shots. So each will have -1D (so will use 3D+1 for both shots). Cool, till there all fine.


Now is when I get confused.

SEGMENT 1)

It's in interest of both players to dodge to avoid being hit. Dodge doesn´t need to be declared at the beginning of the round really. If it happens, it adds difficulty to the other player's shot + can be done each segment + add further -1D to that particular dodge and all actions after (as page 12 and 14 say).

My problem comes deciding who goes first, doing what and with how many dices (due to the penalties). As there is no initiative roll.

Going to page 13 of the 1st Edition Manual got that like in this example... both actions affect each other so manual says roll and higher goes first (and the same roll is used to see if that action succeeded).


So, if I roll and my player rolls. FIRST DOUBT: if we see the results... doesn´t that contradict the dodge? You are seeing the other person results.


Anyway, say we keep it like that. So Good guy got 15 and Bad guy got 10 and they both needed basic 10 to hit the other. So Good guy goes first.
Bad guy would say that dodges now? With how many dices? As they said 2 actions in this combat round they got a -1D making 3D? Or as the dodge is a new action that's a further -1D, so that dodge gets done with 2D only?

I don´t know, let's say Bad guy gets 6 in a 2D dodge roll, that makes total of 16 difficulty for the Good guy that got 15... so the shot passes close to the Bad guy but doesn´t hit anything.

Now same segment,

Bad guy can shoot back. However he's just dodged. So that is a further -1D so he only has 2D+1 to get a 10.


However, if at the beginning I rolled a 10... I've already rolled before! So... what happens?

Or you just re-roll? In that case would it be only with 2D+1? (did a dodge, now this fire, second segment wants to fire again.. so take a penalty of -2D)


Meanwhile the bad guy's dodge comes after his first dodge. As that guy also said to shoot again (to be resolved in second segment), that dodge will be with -2D, right?





I am so sorry if I have made it very confusing. I think I am definitely missing something with the order. For example I watched a video on a further edition where a PERCEPTION roll was introduced as initiative check. With that system I can successfully cascade all actions with correct number of dices.


I hope I haven´t made it very confusing. What a Bible.... As you can see is a mixture of who goes first +dodge + penalties all together.

I am a bit desperate so any help will be appreciated


May the force be with you

[jmanski]

Yah, well, you see....

Frankly, I wouldn't do without Initiative. I don't recall what I did back in the 1E days, but there was some sort of initiative that I used just to avoid the conundrums. Even if you simply declare one side as having initiative (which is what I think I did, come to think of it...).

I hope that helps?
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[Lord Zash]

Hi! Thanks for replying.

Makes sense. That's the only way I think. I have seen some posts on the Internet where they don't use an initial initiative roll but it doesn't make much sense to me. Like this example (2ndpost by Water Bob). http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-334467.html

Han Solo should have dodged? But that would straight affect the dex roll he did. (Less dice si he should roll again)



Anyway . Thanks so much for your reply

[Zarn]

The initiative system I use on SWd6 is pretty simple - declaring actions goes from lowest PER to highest PER (roll to determine ties), while resolving actions goes from highest DEX to lowest DEX (or MEC, in the case of driving stuff or shooting with gunnery). I also usually avoid rolls for heroes vs minions - if there's 'generic' minions (a bunch of bounty hunters, a gaggle of troopers, what have you), they always lose initiative ties.

So if you've got Bib at 2D DEX and 4D PER, while Bob has 4D DEX and 2D PER, then Bob first declares (so that Bib can react to that), while Bob's action resolves first (unless Bib does something crazy, like popping a FP).

Or, a more involved example: There's also Bub, which is 3D DEX and 3D PER.

Declaration:
Bob declares first (2D PER)
Bub then declares (3D PER)
Bib then declares (4D PER)

Resolution:
Bob goes first (4D DEX)
Bub then goes (3D DEX)
Bib then goes (2D DEX)

So Bib's advantage is that he can react to what the others are doing - but his disadvantage is that he's pretty slow.

[Lord Zash]

Cheers Zarn. Sounds pretty simple and makes sense. I will give it a try on my next games.

Thanks from the UK

[Whill]

[Lord Zash]

Indeed it helps Whill!

Perfectly explained. I was following the example with your explanations and it all made sense. Thanks! Now I know how to do it and will apply it, practice it a bit so when it comes the game I am proper fluent.


I think I will gravitate towards using some sort of initiative like suggested by Zarn. Pretty simple, it orders the round/segments and from there I cascade all actions.


Cheers guys!

[Whill]

In the 1988 Rules Upgrade, the mechanic of Haste was added (basically MAPping to get actions to happen earlier than others), and combat sequencing was revised to:

1. Declare Actions.
2. Declare Reaction Skills.
3. Roll Reaction Skills.
4. Roll Actions.
5. Calculate Damage.

And then the 1989 Rules Companion further revised it to:

1. Declare Actions and Full Reaction Skills.
2. Declare Combat Reaction Skills.
3. Roll Actions and Reactions in Order of Haste.
4. Calculate Damage as Hits Hit.

I know that I used these systems when I got them, but these seem damned alien to me looking back at them now. I'm so glad the system kept evolving because it got better!
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