Hints, warnings and other things of that Ilk…

[garhkal]

First off. When do you (as a gm) feel that giving hints/warnings are appropriate.

Do you feel that a gm is required/obligated to give them?

How many do YOU give? How many do you think is required?

Do you feel that a gm should be required to start the 'ball rolling' by dropping a hint, for the players to pick up on and go into?

Do you feel that it is the GMs responsibility to warn them/give them hints, when something bad is going to happen to them? What about if they have done nothing to 'get that hint; like say they have an underworld contract out on them. If they have not checked with any of their underworld friends, then, realistically how would they get any warning/hint?

How many hints do you give before you actually have the 'bad thing' come about?

Do you still spring the 'bad thing' even if they have not picked up on those hints/warnings???

As an example of why i am wondering this, I present the following (note the stats for the NPC’s mentioned are using the Star wars D6 game).

Back in 94-95, during a 14th month long star wars game, the players (6 total, which increased to 7 during the latter 8 months), were having 'fun' harassing a major Hutt. After every time that they messed with his plans (like hijacking a shipment of arms, spice etc) he sent a response. This started off with just gooks. Then went to thugs, major thugs and so on.

Players have foiled yet another plan of the resident Hutt, and even got to his inner sanctum and had him in a standoff. 2 Pcs with grenade belts standing next to him, while 3 of his guards had TD's on the other pcs. One went, they would all go. Rather than do that, they decided to leave. This humiliation IMO was the last straw for the Hutt. He tapped into his personal funds, and contracted out 2 well known and outstanding snipers to take out the 4 main players in the party (main players, the ones who plotted and overcame his machinations).

One sniper, had like 9d in sneak, and 11d in firearms. The other was 8d/10d, and both had silenced rifles. First time they struck, it was after the players settled into a routine for almost a month on their home planet. I had both snipers roll investigations and kept track of their rolls, when they were made etc. Had 1 strike, player #2, while the other struck player #7 (2 of the 4 main ones). When they both went down, the game stopped due to the players thinking i was trying to f**k them over. WE spent over 4 hours arguing about it, and even with me explaining, showing them the notes, they still felt that a GM should never have the bad guys do things like that....

None of the players for the last 2 sessions, which i had building up to this encounter, even checked with ANY of their underworld contacts. And from prior experience, even if they had got a warning from their contacts, they would have not acted on it (as they saw it as a badge of honor).

So looking at that, and to the questions above..
1) Did I do right, by having the assassin/snipers strike without warning them?
2) did I not give enough hinting?
3) should I have pushed hints onto them even though they did nothing to warrant IMO getting any?
4) Should I have held off having the snipers strike until AFTER they had bothered to check, and therefore possibly get a warning that they had a hint out on them?
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Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk!

[Boomer]

The only mistake was that their contacts never came forth with the information voluntarily. A contact is a living breathing person whom you depend upon for info.
In a game I have ben playing, my character got a simple message from one of his contacts, "ISB has been asking about you." I took it seriously, and managed to not get bombarded, or stormed, or anything else because I took to laying low for a week.

Seriously, at any point did one of their contacts think to say "Hey, this guy I know who is a "friend/gives me shiny objects", they might die soon, I should warn them." Did the contacts all hear of the impending doom of the players, and neither have it in their hearts, nor see it in even their slightest of best interest to warn the party.

THAN if the party didn;t take it seriously, just let things go as planned.
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My backpack has jets!
I'm Boba the Fett!
And I bounty hunt for Jabba Hutt,
to finance my 'vette!

[garhkal]

Well, i guess you and i have a different idea on contacts.... I see them the way white wolf has it. Where they are someone who does favors for one another, but does not put their life on the line unless they either know the reward for giving the info is worth more, or they owe a big favor...
So with that thinking on how contacts operate, i made the decision that those contacts who DID know of this hutt contract, would tell if approached, but would not make the approach themselves... for fear of peeving off the hutt themselves.
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Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk!

[Kehlin Yew]

thats the way i would have contacts set. they wouldn't want to put themselves in danger if it's not asked of them.

[Boomer]

Again, there is that statement about rewards. And the statement about possible danger.
None of the contacts thought they would gain something from the PCs survival?
None of the contacts could think of a way to covertly warn the PCs without fear of reprisal?

Those are some dumb contacts. Why did the PCs bother with them in the first place?
It's nice you are using an established rule for contacts, and I would say you were justified at the time. But I would have done it diffrently.
_________________
My backpack has jets!
I'm Boba the Fett!
And I bounty hunt for Jabba Hutt,
to finance my 'vette!

[Kehlin Yew]

Well if you were connected to said group of people and you know they are being hunted, wouldn't you think those people that are hunting them are also looking at all the people they associate with also?

[KageRyu]

In a situation that is character life or death, i do feel the GM should drop some sort of clue. The exact nature of the clue, and whether or not the players actually understand it is up to the GM. What it comes down to in the end, though, is this: A GM can kill a player's character at any time, with no effort, and no challenge whatsoecer. Doin so should be frowned upon, as it removes the joy of role playing. If the players are never given the chance to know their character's lives are in danger, and thus attempt to thwart it, why waste time writing an elaborate plot and playing through it? Why not simply Look at the player one day and say, "hand in your character sheet, I am killing off your character"? Because, esentially, that is what you are doing.

Now, when you at least drop a clue, if the players choose not to ask about it, or take precautions, or investigate, then they brought their deaths on themselves.
A good clue would have been to have a lesser skilled assasin or hired gun attack the players, seemingly at random, out in the Open. If the players take him alive they can interogate him, if they kill him, perhaps the find clues on his person indicating he was paid (maybe enough to track it back to who), or evidence they have a price on their head. Then, If they do nothing, they deserve what happens.
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"There's a set way to gain new Force Points and it represents a very nice system, where you're rewarded for heroism, not for being a poor conductor to electricity." ~Jachra

[Boomer]

Kehlin, you are going down the path of what's and how's. Yes, a contact would take that into consideration. Yes if he is planning to warn the players safely, he would do it safely. Even the Hutts and the Hunters have limits on people they can pin down and watch.
And how exactly do the Hunters or Hutts know of these contacts already, and are not simply disposing of a few of them to more easily monitor the others?

That argument can go in circles forever. I don't feel it is necesary. There is always a trump to the trump. The rock fears the paper fears the scissors fears the rock. Can you smell what the rock is cooking?

The contacts are useless if they are so simpering they cannot pry themselves out from under the all-seeing eye of their enemies to make a phone-call.
I'd fry those contacts myself, since those kinds are likely to turn me in.
_________________
My backpack has jets!
I'm Boba the Fett!
And I bounty hunt for Jabba Hutt,
to finance my 'vette!

[garhkal]

KageRyu.. Quick question.

Do you not think with each messing with, the hutts response stepped up being warning, that since they took their 'messing with' to the direct level, so would he??

As to the lesser 'hired gun', the 2 prior groups that went after the pcs, were bounty hunters. That is what prompted them to go after the hutt directly. Since all his other henchmen were taken out, and other than the 2 snipers were all that was left (other than a pair of slicers, who would have not done much since the PCs don't bother with tracable accounts and such, a chef and a pair of book worms), would it not stand to reason they would be the ones he taps next?
So how logically would a 'lesser assassin' be tapped to go after them?
Not arguing just trying to understand.... That is something others have mentioned, over on the Gencon LLC forums.

Good point, on the contacts could have pried them selves, boomer. BUT i feel you are stepping more towards what an ally would be doing, rather than a contact. By the way, what difference do you see between the two?
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Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk!

[Esjs]

How tough were the bounty hunters you sent previously? If the bounty hunters were taken out with the greatest of ease, then they weren't tough enough.

The problem is, the players need to feel the connection between aggravating the Hutt and their own livelihood. Before the "instant death," there should be a "near-death" experience. One of those life-changing moments. A few of the players need to be Mortally Wounded, on the brink of dying, but don't let them die. THAT should be their warning. They should feel like their lives are actually in danger. "Oh crap, we've pissed him off so bad that we almost got killed."

Then, if they go to the Hutt, get in a stand-off, then decide to leave, the Hutt should warn them "You will regret not killing me. You will pay for it with you lives." THAT should be another warning.

Another warning you can give can come from an NPC healer who brings the Mortally Wounded back to a stable condition (if you don't already have such a healer in the group). "You almost died there. Maybe you should consider your future before aggravating a Hutt again."

So there you have it. Three possible warnings, without the use of contacts or allies.

If they still aren't being cautious, then the sniper shot death is justified.
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"WHERE ARE THE CHEETOS?"

"Esjs" == "Jess"

[garhkal]

The first pairing, were moderate level, 7d blaster, 6d dodge, 5d most other 'bounty hunter related skills, along with 1fp/6cp.
The second pairing were more uped... 8-9d/6d for those skills, and 3 fp/9cp. The latter time, i almost had them, but poor rolls on my part (i had it in the open), compiled with great tactics on theirs let to the BH's defeat.

As to your other warning suggestions. I liked the medic one (well if any of them needed one) and the hutt DID say something like it. IIRC (since it was a while ago), i had him let them know that this insult to him was the final straw.... (or something like it)....
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Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk!

[KageRyu]

[Crell Damar]

I realize that I'm hopping into this late. But one could put the contact in danger, and instead of doing it really as a warning, he could be upset. The actions of the party brought the hutts boys down on him, and he's skipping town. The hutt wants him, and you dead sort of thing.

Don't underestimate the power of a computer. All sorts of things can be done. False bounties. Increasing the severity of crimes on their criminal record. Slicers could have made their lives real miserable.
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"For over a thousand generations, the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic. Before the dark times... before the Empire. "

Obi-Wan Kenobi

[Boomer]

I was asked, I shall asnwer: The diffrence between a contact and an ally.

A contact is someone inside an organization whom you either befriend or pay to give you inside info you wouldn't normally be able to receive.

An ally is someone you have an agreement with to advance common goals.

They can be the same thing, they can also have very diffrent goals. But in the case of a contact, it should somehow be implied to them that they get something in return for handing over info, and warning the party. Wether they be friends, wether they pay them something, wether it's blackmail, it doesn't matter. I consider it of poor taste for a contact to wuss out and not use his head to find a safe way to warn the party.

Should the party have been expecting it anyway. YES! I only mention the contact for realisms sake. A warning along the lines of "The hutt is hiring somebody to go after you, dunno who, but they charge a LOT." And cut it off right there is the minimum I would have done.
Or go with the adrenaline pumping way... the com chimes. "Hello? Hey Mak'Ic, wassup? Danger? Outside the base? Hello? ...he cut the channel." Than the snipers attack.

That is just how I would have done it, and the way I think contacts should work. I am giving them something in return for info, damnit they better do SOMETHING.

But I still feel that you were justified as they should have been expecting it anyway.
_________________
My backpack has jets!
I'm Boba the Fett!
And I bounty hunt for Jabba Hutt,
to finance my 'vette!

[garhkal]

Posted by KageRyu.