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CRMcNeill
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 Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 4:46 pm Post subject: Evasive Maneuvers |
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As I'm working out my rules for Cloaking Devices and how to use them in combat, I've come across an issue.
Historically, ships in potentially hostile waters would zig-zag their course to throw off fire control calculations made by enemy torpedo launch platforms (whether submarines, destroyers, PT boats, etc). However, the RAW has no way to represent this. You either get a standard Dodge, declared as a reaction against an incoming attack, or you get a full Dodge, which is effective against all attacks, but doesn't allow anything else.
So how do you work it if a character or ship wants to deliberately make themselves a harder target, even though they don't know whether they are under attack or not? Maybe an interim reaction form, where the ship declares an Evasive Action, which is rolled like a Standard Reaction (not stacked with the base Difficulty), but applied like a Full Reaction (effective against all attacks that round), subject to normal MAPs?
Alternatives? Thoughts?
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Raven Redstar
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| Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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Well, theoretically, you can declare a standard dodge maneuver before you're shot at. There are two ways to do this, that I can see: a Preemptive dodge maneuver can be made before subtracting MAPs; or, you double penalize reaction skills, making it more "cost effective" to declare dodges rather than reactive dodge.
It's also possible that this type of evasive maneuver is just best reflected in the "Full Dodge" action.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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| Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Raven Redstar wrote: | | Well, theoretically, you can declare a standard dodge maneuver before you're shot at. There are two ways to do this, that I can see: a Preemptive dodge maneuver can be made before subtracting MAPs; or, you double penalize reaction skills, making it more "cost effective" to declare dodges rather than reactive dodge. |
Well, if its a capital ship simply flying through space, the evasive maneuver isn't going to hit all that hard. A -2D penalty to Capital Ship Piloting actually sounds rather realistic, considering the number of collisions that happened between ships in WWII who were just reacting to possible submarine sightings.
| Quote: | | It's also possible that this type of evasive maneuver is just best reflected in the "Full Dodge" action. |
Full Reactions are only allowed if the ship/character does nothing else that round. It'd make no sense to have a ship trying to travel from one system to another if all it did was spin wildly in random directions to avoid a shot that might be coming in.
The only way it would work would be to allow free actions in the same round as a Full Reaction, in which case, the ship could do a Full Dodge while still moving at Cruising Speed in Very Easy, Easy or Moderate space. However, the rule on reaction skills is quite specific that it must be the only action the character makes that round.
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Raven Redstar
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| Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Full Reactions are only allowed if the ship/character does nothing else that round. It'd make no sense to have a ship trying to travel from one system to another if all it did was spin wildly in random directions to avoid a shot that might be coming in.
The only way it would work would be to allow free actions in the same round as a Full Reaction, in which case, the ship could do a Full Dodge while still moving at Cruising Speed in Very Easy, Easy or Moderate space. However, the rule on reaction skills is quite specific that it must be the only action the character makes that round. |
The character being the pilot in this case. Gunners can still gun, the shields guy can shield, the Sensors can still sense, the Comms guy can still use the Comms. It's one of the main advantages I've seen for the big warships is that because they require such a large crew, all other functions can still happen even if the pilot is only flying and making no other actions that round.
But, I do agree that it wouldn't make a whole lot of sense for them to do it if there is no foreseeable threat.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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| Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Raven Redstar wrote: | | It's also possible that this type of evasive maneuver is just best reflected in the "Full Dodge" action. |
Full Reactions are only allowed if the ship/character does nothing else that round. It'd make no sense to have a ship trying to travel from one system to another if all it did was spin wildly in random directions to avoid a shot that might be coming in.
The only way it would work would be to allow free actions in the same round as a Full Reaction, in which case, the ship could do a Full Dodge while still moving at Cruising Speed in Very Easy, Easy or Moderate space. However, the rule on reaction skills is quite specific that it must be the only action the character makes that round. |
There are flaws with this interpretation of RAW.
First of all, it makes no sense to dodge without moving. If you're zigging or zagging, you're moving. The cruising speed limit of free actions would make a logical distance you move while full dodging - If you want to get farther then you need a move action and thus you can't full dodge.
Besides moving cruising speed in moderate or less terrain, RAW also states other things that can be done as free actions are rolling initiative, making a perception or search check to notice something, rolling strength vs. damage or rolling to resist Force powers. I can imagine it now...
| Quote: | GM: That's a hit. Roll to resist damage.
Player: I can't.
GM: Why not? Your dodge was unsuccessful and the bad guy hit you. Roll strength.
Player: It's not allowed by the rules.
GM: What rule?!
Player: Full Reaction, p. 90.
GM: I know the rule.
Player: It says Full Reaction is the only action you can take in the round. Rolling to resist damage is a free action. Therefore, I can't roll to resist damage.
GM: OK, fine. Your resist value is zero against (rolls dice)... 17. You're dead. |
RAW did not intend that Full Reactions prohibit you from resisting damage, rolling initiative, etc. The only logical interpretation of the Full Reaction rule is that its prohibition against other "actions" that round does not apply to free actions.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | Historically, ships in potentially hostile waters would zig-zag their course to throw off fire control calculations made by enemy torpedo launch platforms (whether submarines, destroyers, PT boats, etc). However, the RAW has no way to represent this. You either get a standard Dodge, declared as a reaction against an incoming attack, or you get a full Dodge, which is effective against all attacks, but doesn't allow anything else.
So how do you work it if a character or ship wants to deliberately make themselves a harder target, even though they don't know whether they are under attack or not? |
Full dodge is declared up front so it is a preventative measure. Since Full Dodge is a declared action and not really a reaction, I would rule that you could declare a full dodge not knowing whether you are going to be attacked or not. No need for any more crunch here.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:54 am Post subject: |
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That's my feel, as well. Would that apply to other restricted actions, such as moving at All-Out?
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KageRyu
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| Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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I have been considering this for a while and here's my general thoughts.
While it might seem that a zig-zag pattern of evasive maneuvers should be a full doge I do disagree... and while I wouldn't exactly call it a pre-emptive reaction dodge either. I would likely view this as the ship being at least on alert of possible threat (as ships in real life tend to do this in hostile waters and are also monitoring for possible attack when doing so) and thus allow a reactionary dodge to be made if there were a torpedo attack or attack from cloaked vessel. Essentially, it would offset the portion of surprise and ambush preventing defensive action...but that is the only part of the surprise and ambush rules I would let it offset. I would not allow a full dodge for this reaction - but would rule given the already somewhat evasive patterns and heightened alert status, the crew of the vessel could try to make a sudden course change, deploy countermeasures, etc...
For a full evasion, I tend to think of much more rapid movement, sudden course changes, deployment for chaff/flares (ok the rules do not specifically mention these, but it adds to the feel). While sure, according to RAW you can do these without an attack yet declared, to think a ship is doing all of this when not even aware an enemy is present I find stretches credulity. Maybe, if the vessel or another in it's group was already attacked and the hostile re-cloaked, the vessels could/would then maintain active evasive maneuvers for many rounds.
As to moving and using full dodge/full evasion the last time I remember reading it, Full Evasion/Dodge still allowed 1 normal speed movement. It does specifically state no other actions may be performed. It does not distinguish between dice less actions or not - and I would agree with this assessment. It would be hard to accurately try to make a perception check or sensor sweep when a vessel is twisting and turning and spinning wildly, let alone program a nav computer, ready/load weapons, etc... as the crew likely needs to be strapped in or be thrown about and risk injury. Having played a multitude of fighter sims over the decades, it is very easy to lose track of positioning and orientation when ducking and diving wildly to avoid incoming fire. This is why smaller, subtler evasions (reactionary dodges) are often better.
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Whill
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KageRyu
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| Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: |
Besides moving cruising speed in moderate or less terrain, RAW also states other things that can be done as free actions are rolling initiative, making a perception or search check to notice something, rolling strength vs. damage or rolling to resist Force powers. I can imagine it now...
RAW did not intend that Full Reactions prohibit you from resisting damage, rolling initiative, etc. |
Under RAW, Rolling initiative and resisting damage are not considered actions at all - free or otherwise. Yes they involve dice rolls, but they are game mechanics, not active actions taken on the part of a character intentionally. Even unconscious one gets a damage resistance roll - it represents a being or structures durability and resistance to injury. Initiative is simply a mechanic for determining action order in a round.
Free actions are things like Talking, Readying/reloading a weapon, moving at base speed, changing stance, or any other conscious task that may take time but has no related skill check (lighting a torch, sending a text message, putting on pants, flipping a burger, taking a drink, shuffling cards, etc...). All of which could prove difficult to do while doing a full dodge with the possible exception of yelling a short message like "Watch Out!"
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Whill
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| Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:00 pm Post subject: |
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| KageRyu wrote: | Under RAW, Rolling initiative and resisting damage are not considered actions at all - free or otherwise. Yes they involve dice rolls, but they are game mechanics, not active actions taken on the part of a character intentionally. Even unconscious one gets a damage resistance roll - it represents a being or structures durability and resistance to injury. Initiative is simply a mechanic for determining action order in a round.
Free actions are things like Talking, Readying/reloading a weapon, moving at base speed, changing stance, or any other conscious task that may take time but has no related skill check (lighting a torch, sending a text message, putting on pants, flipping a burger, taking a drink, shuffling cards, etc...). All of which could prove difficult to do while doing a full dodge with the possible exception of yelling a short message like "Watch Out!" |
Just to be complete: R&E p.80
| Quote: | Free Actions. Free actions are anything that a character can automatically perform except under the most extreme conditions. They're extremely simple actions that don't require a skill roll or much effort; if something requires significant concentration, it's not a free action.
Examples of free actions include:
• Rolling Perception to determine initiative.
• Shouting a sentence or two to someone across a corridor.
• Taking a quick look around a room — at the gamemaster's discretion, characters may be allowed to make search or Perception rolls to see if they spot something that's unusual or hidden.
• Grabbing something off a counter. (Of course, this action may be pretty difficult in the middle of a battle — in that case it wouldn't count as a free action!)
•Walking very slowly in Moderate, Easy or Very Easy terrain. This is "cautious movement" and is explained in Chapter Six, "Movement and Chases."
• Making a Strength roll to resist damage in combat. A character always rolls his or her full Strength to resist damage (even if wounded), although diseases and other circumstances may reduce a character's Strength dice.
• Making a control Force skill or Perception roll to resist the effects of Force or other mental powers. Characters roll their full control or Perception unless otherwise noted.
Non-Roll Actions. Characters often attempt non-roll actions: these are actions that don't require a skill roll but are complicated enough to count as an action (reducing the character's die codes for all other skill and attribute rolls that round.)
Examples of non-roll actions:
• Reloading a weapon.
• Getting very basic information out of a datapad.
• Piloting a vehicle very slowly in Moderate, Easy or Very Easy terrain. This is "cautious movement" and is explained in Chapter Six, "Movement and Chases."
• Anything that requires a lot of concentration but doesn't require a skill roll. |
Like anything, it requires a dose of common sense to determine what can and can't be done during Full Reactions and going All-Out. Above in the thread, I was merely pointing out that the Full Reaction description in RAW indicating that no other actions can be taken logically does not apply to Free Actions. It even says that grabbing something off the counter may not be a free action in combat. Out of the other examples given, I can see ruling that a free Perception check to notice something may also not be possible during a Full Reaction or going All-Out, depending on the circumstances.
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KageRyu
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| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 12:07 am Post subject: |
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IN R&E they listed Damage resistance as an action? That makes zero sense.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 12:11 am Post subject: |
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| KageRyu wrote: | | IN R&E they listed Damage resistance as an action? That makes zero sense. |
As a FREE action, which makes a big difference.
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KageRyu
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| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 12:25 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | KageRyu wrote: | | IN R&E they listed Damage resistance as an action? That makes zero sense. |
As a FREE action, which makes a big difference. |
I still say this was a poor editorial choice to list it as any sort of action and makes zero sense because it is a basic system mechanic. Even inanimate objects get a damage resistance roll. It's something that may seem like I am just being picky over semantics, but it is a lot more than that really - especially because it can lead to questions and confusion about it being disallowed, say, during full dodge or when a character is incapacitated or unconscious and Damage Resistance Rolls are always allowed. It's the sort of poor choice of phrasing and placement that in a d20 book I have too often seen lead to severe abuse by DM's (the infamous 20 always hits rule).
I'll be honest, I never noticed it there before, but then again I still mainly only glanced over the 2e R&R rules skipping large sections I already felt happy with in the edition I played. I see they more carefully clarified between what they call a Free action and an Non-Roll action too... and some of what I mentioned wasn't free, but was a non-skill action.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 12:37 am Post subject: |
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No, I understand, and the wording on the Full Reaction rule made it even worse, because it specified any action, even when the description of Free Action in the same book contradicted it. Poor grammar choice, indeed. For sake of argument, let's just say "any action" means "any action that would incur a MAP," which includes all Standard and No-Roll Actions, as well as some Free actions depending on circumstances.
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KageRyu
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| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 12:41 am Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | KageRyu wrote: | Under RAW, Rolling initiative and resisting damage are not considered actions at all - free or otherwise. Yes they involve dice rolls, but they are game mechanics, not active actions taken on the part of a character intentionally. Even unconscious one gets a damage resistance roll - it represents a being or structures durability and resistance to injury. Initiative is simply a mechanic for determining action order in a round.
Free actions are things like Talking, Readying/reloading a weapon, moving at base speed, changing stance, or any other conscious task that may take time but has no related skill check (lighting a torch, sending a text message, putting on pants, flipping a burger, taking a drink, shuffling cards, etc...). All of which could prove difficult to do while doing a full dodge with the possible exception of yelling a short message like "Watch Out!" |
Just to be complete: R&E p.80
| Quote: | Free Actions. Free actions are anything that a character can automatically perform except under the most extreme conditions. They're extremely simple actions that don't require a skill roll or much effort; if something requires significant concentration, it's not a free action.
Examples of free actions include:
• Rolling Perception to determine initiative.
• Shouting a sentence or two to someone across a corridor.
• Taking a quick look around a room — at the gamemaster's discretion, characters may be allowed to make search or Perception rolls to see if they spot something that's unusual or hidden.
• Grabbing something off a counter. (Of course, this action may be pretty difficult in the middle of a battle — in that case it wouldn't count as a free action!)
•Walking very slowly in Moderate, Easy or Very Easy terrain. This is "cautious movement" and is explained in Chapter Six, "Movement and Chases."
• Making a Strength roll to resist damage in combat. A character always rolls his or her full Strength to resist damage (even if wounded), although diseases and other circumstances may reduce a character's Strength dice.
• Making a control Force skill or Perception roll to resist the effects of Force or other mental powers. Characters roll their full control or Perception unless otherwise noted.
Non-Roll Actions. Characters often attempt non-roll actions: these are actions that don't require a skill roll but are complicated enough to count as an action (reducing the character's die codes for all other skill and attribute rolls that round.)
Examples of non-roll actions:
• Reloading a weapon.
• Getting very basic information out of a datapad.
• Piloting a vehicle very slowly in Moderate, Easy or Very Easy terrain. This is "cautious movement" and is explained in Chapter Six, "Movement and Chases."
• Anything that requires a lot of concentration but doesn't require a skill roll. |
Like anything, it requires a dose of common sense to determine what can and can't be done during Full Reactions and going All-Out. Above in the thread, I was merely pointing out that the Full Reaction description in RAW indicating that no other actions can be taken logically does not apply to Free Actions. It even says that grabbing something off the counter may not be a free action in combat. Out of the other examples given, I can see ruling that a free Perception check to notice something may also not be possible during a Full Reaction or going All-Out, depending on the circumstances. |
Ok I stand corrected (though I dislike they listed it this way) - Given this way it is listed in R&E, then I would say the spirit of the full reaction rule was to disallow all actions except free actions. I would have no problem with all of the free actions except perhaps grabbing something while being tossed about, a non-roll perception check that just yields basic information I would be fine with, Initiative become more or less moot as all you can do is evade. In application, I would probably allow the crew of a ship to attempt some of these and possibly other skills but the evasive roll would be added to their difficulty (or made into a Dex difficulty for things with no skill). Of course, on a complication on the wild die the character would run the risk of being thrown into something sharp, pointy, sparkly, electrical, or hot and thus injured. The moral is - don't try to cook live Aqualeshian Lobster while dodging Tie-Fighter blasts.
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