Overcoming Scale

[shootingwomprats]

I have been kicking around the idea of overcoming scale by using a combined action and wanted to know what others thought of this.

Overcoming Scale
When using combined actions, for every three extra actions, one level of scale can be overcome. This gives no additional damage or benefit. Additional extra actions can be "spent" normally for additional damage, etc.

Example: Four Y-wings are attacking an Imperial-I Star Destroyer. The commander makes his command roll and can add in his additional three pilots. He decides to spend these actions to upgrade the ion torpedoes from starship scale to capital ship scale damage.

This does bring up the question if starfighter's can carry capital ship killing ion torpedoes. My thoughts would be yes, as we already have planes that carry ship-killing missiles.

What do the rest of you think?
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[Naaman]

I assume each ship must expend a torpedo?
How many attack rolls are made?

You may want to limit the maximum damage that can occur when using this (such as destruction of a specific system, rather than outright destroying the entire capitol ship with a single volley).

[WillTasker]

[thedemonapostle]

i would say that the combined attacks would act more like fire linking weapons and just use the rules for linking weapons to increase the damage.

in regards to the can starfighters carry anti-capital ship munitions question, i would say yes as in much the same way real world fighter jets can carry nukes. while the larger nukes typically require a dedicated bomber for their delivery, smaller nukes can be carried by fighter jets. for star wars i would say that the larger anti-capital ship munitions are just too big for your starfighters requiring something more along the size of a light to medium space transport for proper delivery, but an x-wing, y-wing or more likely a k-wing could carry an anti-capital ship missile/mine/bomb that does somewhere in the area of 4D to 6D capital scale damage if not more.

now for ion torpedoes the damage would probably be around 8D - 9D starfighter scale. which, iirc, is around 2D - 3D capital scale. now if you and a few friends use command and all shoot an ion torpedo at a capital ship it will do somewhere in the area of 10D-11D starfighter scale or 4D-5D capital scale ionization damage. if you were all carrying anti-capital ship ion torpedoes and did the same action as before and the base damage is as suggested above then your combined damage would probably be around 6D-8D capital scale ionization damage. now that is a credible threat to an ISD.

i would say that a new rule to overcome scale isnt needed that you just need to be a little looser with the rules.

by your rule couldnt someone just get a couple dozen guys with blaster pistols and use command to take control of their actions and just shoot at anything and then destroy it at around or greater than death star scale?
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[Starbeard]

It's an interesting rule. It does need some fleshing out, but actually I quite like the elegance of the idea.

We see tiny starfighters grouping together to take on big capital ships in RotJ, and of course there are the many video games where this happens, so there has to be some tactical reason to throw starfighters at an ISD. In theory the combined attack would operate just like a normal fire-linked attack, but the 'reality' of the situation is that the starfighters aren't all combining their attacks at the same target to maximize damage. Instead, they are each attacking specific smaller targets—guns, shield capacitors, power transistors, tractor beams—stuff that starfighters can damage, crippling the ship when it's all added up.

In the game, you could have all of your starfighters attacking individual little targets on the ISD, keeping track of what has and hasn't been damaged, and how that affects the overall performance of the ship—or you could just abstract it and say that so many starfighters will deal one capital scale attack. It abstracts the action but the end effect is probably the same, as long as you are able to balance it so that three x-wings aren't blowing up ISDs every third or fourth attack.

And how about this: there were twelve Rebel starfighters that attacked the Death Star. If we were to say that it takes 6 craft to bump up the scale, then that's two scales, taking them from 12 Starfighter-scale attacks to one Death Star-scale attack, assuming that General Dodonna is able to make a fantastic Command roll and coordinate all twelve fighters. They roll, they hit, they get a 'destroyed' damage result—a proton torpedo goes down the exhaust shaft and there goes the Death Star!

[Whill]

[KageRyu]

A few things:
Ignoring Scale-
I would strongly advise against it as it could quickly become game breaking. In terms of Weapons for a larger scale, there are some weapons in the game that even with the Die Code differences can hurt larger scale items. Add in that smaller scaled attackers can more easily aim for week and vulnerable points on a larger scale attacker for additional damage boosts.
Additionally, with Starfighter Vs. Capital Ships, there is precedent in the Original Trilogy, the Prequels, and The new movies for snub fighters to be able to get close enough to a capital ship to be inside of it's shields )either by passing through an opening used for torpedo or engines or by skill piloting to avoid bouncing off...I would call for a pilot check of at least Moderate to difficult). The scale difference is 6D, but the Y-Wing carries Proton Torpedoes which are 9D at starfighter scale. With the Scale difference these couldn't do much against a Star Destroyer in a direct head on assault (7D hull), but aiming for vital points (Called shots as per 2E R&E could gain a damage bonus of 1D to 4D) and with a group of fighters making a coordinated attack...let's Say 6 (+2D combined bonus 2E R&E page 82-83) this means they have a chance of dealing serious damage even with scale.
Alternately - the fighters could target weapons or engines and if successful the GM could rule individual turrets destroyed or some speed lost, etc... (2E R&E combat Chapters and Called Shots).

Combining Actions -
I would use the existing combining actions rules for groups (2E R&E page 82-83), or the rules presented in the 1E Rules Companion, or 2E Gamemaster Screen and guide.

12 Starfighters Engaging the Death Star-
They exploited a weakness that was entirely plot driven - this had nothing to do with scale or combined actions at all. Very Clearly explained in the Original Star Wars, further elaborated on in Rogue One (though it adds nothing really new to the exploiting a weakness part really, just makes the fact such a weakness could slip by quality control somehow more palatable to some).
A much more accurate depiction of Combined Actions still being ineffective without a plot device to allow it is the Battle of Hoth = even with coordinated fire the infantry are not able to slow down or damage even 1 ATAT. Several Snowspeeders on an attack run also fail to do any appreciable damage.

For these reasons I would strongly urge caution before abolishing Scale.

And I am speaking with the experience of playing before true and proper scale was added to the game, and it has come a LONG way since it was first created in the 1E Rules Companion. In 1E, there was no fighting capital ships - they were plot devices... Didn't even have Die Codes for Hull in the first books.
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[Starbeard]

[Starbeard]

[CRMcNeill]

The Death Star isn't a very good example for cross-scale combat. To paraphrase the film, its stats are designed around a direct, large-scale assault (that is, massed combat against fleets of capital ships). For the purposes of what we see in the film, it's better to treat the Death Star as a planet, and treat the various weapons, sensors, trenches and the exhaust port as terrain features.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index

[Starbeard]

[CRMcNeill]

[CRMcNeill]

A couple points on the OP (I assume, based on the description, that we're talking about the ion torpedo attack in Rogue One):

-There were five Y-Wings on the attack run, and each launched at least two attacks (one against the main hull and one against the ship's bridge, so we're likely looking at initial damage compounded by the damage from the second attack.

-Five Y-Wings firing dual linked torpedoes in a massed attack is ten torpedoes. There are a variety of different scale options out there, but for the sake of argument, we'll go with the RAW, which gives 1D for the first three combined, plus 1 for each additional, so 3D+1.

-Then there is the Accuracy Damage rule from RoE. The 6D Scale modifier means the ISD soaks at +6D, but it Dodges at -6D, which effectively means that the Y-Wings can pick and place their shots against known weak spots on the Star Destroyer for maximum effect.

-And shields may not factor in at all. WEG has waffled over the years as to whether or not torpedoes were affected by shields, but my current theory is that torpedoes are specifically designed to penetrate shields (with the trade-off being that they are slow and very short ranges).
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index