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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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Joined: 07 Apr 2017
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 Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:22 am Post subject: Hyperspace & Comms |
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Hyperspace & Comms
I've been thinking about this--that we've seen communications being used while a ship is in hyperspace....
Obviously, sensors are used while in hyperspace. Page 59 of the First Edition core rule book, under Mishaps, says, "Starships are equipped with gravitic sensors to sense small masses and, if one is dangerously close to the ship and its path, cut the hyperdrive, throwing the ship into normal space."
Also, there are EU references where a ship can cut out its hyperdrive early, on purpose--meaning that a ship is not locked into going to its destination once it enters hyperspace. It can stop somewhere along the path. For that to happen, there has to be some method of figuring where the ship will exit--and that probably involves sensors. Of course, I could see an argument that this is completely figured from the NaviComp plot, "You'll be here in two hours, there in three." Same could be said for the buzzer that goes off announcing arrival at the destination.
Hyperspace Comms Signal
My thought though is, if the ship can receive signals while in hyperspace, the ship is not completely cocooned off from anything outside its hull. And, therefore, , the ship should be able to transmit and receive some sort of comms signal while in hyperspace.
Meson Comm?
Maybe this is easy, using standard comms.
Maybe this isn't easy, and a special comm is needed, like the Imperial Hyperradio.
If you want a dedicated comm that a ship could conceivably use in hyperspace, I'd say that some Star Wars tech version of Meson communications is used. A meson is a massless theoretical particle (not unlike the graviton). Because it is massless, it could conceivably be hurled faster than light with little problem (and it may, in fact, be the basis of the Hyperradio), and the transmission will not get garbled with the distorted effects mass and gravity have on a hyperspace trip.
No Combat. Yes Communications.
Page 55 of the First Edition Core Rulebook says, "Ships in hyperspace cannot fire at each other, so there is little to worry about while en route." It doesn't say anything about barring comms. And, firing weapons takes a lot more than just targeting.
So, I can see Hyperspace communication (now that I've worked it out) as something that does not go against the rules of the WEG D6 game and is acceptable technology in the SW universe in general. |
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Zarn
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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| Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:20 am Post subject: |
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| Doesn't say anything about their use during a hyperspace journey, though. That's the question. |
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Zarn
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| Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:34 am Post subject: |
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Under the HoloNet entry:
"A message was first broadcast from a planet, a vessel in hyperspace, or from another point of origin; from there, it was then routed from the point of origin's transmitter through potentially millions of hyperwave transceivers suspended in hyperspace to a HoloNet relay, where it was sorted, identified and logged by the relay's computer, and then routed further via appropriate transceivers to its destination." |
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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| Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:00 am Post subject: |
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| Zarn wrote: | Under the HoloNet entry:
"A message was first broadcast from a planet, a vessel in hyperspace, or from another point of origin; from there, it was then routed from the point of origin's transmitter through potentially millions of hyperwave transceivers suspended in hyperspace to a HoloNet relay, where it was sorted, identified and logged by the relay's computer, and then routed further via appropriate transceivers to its destination." |
Still, that's the HoloNet, which is not quite what we're talking about (just voice comm). But, to your point, the case is made that communication in hyperspace isn't new to the new films. |
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Mamatried
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Location: Norway
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| Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 11:58 am Post subject: |
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| I would think any form of communications signals will be very distorted if travelling in/through hyperspace, and thus a ship transmitting any comms signal would need to have the crew roll for communications, maybe with higher difficulties. |
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OuttaWindu
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 26 Mar 2018
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| Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Mamatried wrote: | | I would think any form of communications signals will be very distorted if travelling in/through hyperspace, and thus a ship transmitting any comms signal would need to have the crew roll for communications, maybe with higher difficulties. |
Only even indirect reference on the top of my head is in RebelsS03orS04(I know, not the best example) it was pointed out that to control( done by some Imperial Intel Station) an astromech droid from such a distance and through hyperspace you need a strong signal to transmit.
Maybe it isn't entirely up to the crews Comms roll, but partial to the ships receiver(and senders transmitter)? Hyperspace and distance could add flat difficulty or dice modifier to transmissions. |
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FVBonura
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| Posted: Fri Jan 10, 2025 11:44 pm Post subject: |
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In my campaign sensors can work in hyperspace but seldom provide anything more useful than detecting a mass shadow in the direction of travel to trip the emergency collision braking system. You are essentially in another dimension with radical physics receiving sensor data from that dimension not realspace.
Having said that, I just finished Timothy Zahn's "Vison of the Future" and found something interesting about Chiss technology, in chapter 27, that might help you. I haven't figured out how this fits in my campaign yet so this might be a good place to discuss/explore that.
| Timothy Zahn wrote: | | "It’s a device of Chiss design," Stent added with clear pride. "Totally dormant except when in hyperspace, a time when virtually no one thinks to do scans for such things. We’ve followed Bastion’s movement from system to system with a great deal of interest." |
Somehow the Chiss found a way to track this file that broadcasts something in Hyperspace so they can track the secret location of Bastion whenever it moves from planet to planet. I don't get the sense this is a fast method of detection but the Chiss figured it out. Food for thought. 
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CRMcNeill
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2025 9:21 am Post subject: |
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There’s sufficient evidence in the EU to indicate that ships’ comms are blacked out while in hyperspace. This fits with my overall concept that gravity is the only energy form that carries across the dimensional boundaries between realspace and hyperspace. The Sourcebook is somewhat vague in its definition of how prevalent CGT sensors are, and my take is that, while the CGT Array seen in the Thrawn Trilogy is the apex of said sensor type (analogous to the massive underwater passive sonar arrays used by the US Navy’s SOSUS Network), lesser gravitic sensors are in common use, and pretty much every ship has some form of it. This is essential to hyperspace travel because gravitic detection would be the only way to detect nearby mass shadows.
Regarding comms, it’s a bit trickier. One headcanon idea I have is a very slow communication system (ala the ELF Transmitters used to communicate with submerged submarines). Transmission rates are only a few characters per minute, and are mainly used to instruct the receiving ship to make contact using some other method (like dropping out of hyperspace to access the Holonet). This fits with in-setting evidence from Wraith Squadron’s attempted ambush of the Implacable at Morobe, where the Implacable’s crew predicted the ambush and aborted their hyperspace jump, but were unable to warn their escorts. With ELF Hypercomms, the low transmission rate would’ve prevented any warning from reaching the other ships before they reached their objective.
One would think that it should be easier to establish a link to the Holonet while in hyperspace, but apparently not. Theory: linking to the Holonet requires a relatively stationary position (galactically speaking) to establish and maintain a temporary s-thread connection to the nearest Holonet Array, so the ship in question must be in realspace to do so. The homing device described in the HoT books could conceivably be an ELF Transponder of some sort.
This reminds me of my Galactic Positioning System concept, where ships could use specially tuned Holonet receivers to detect the carrier waves from nearby Holonet arrays (which have fixed locations) and use the received data to plot more accurate hyperspace routes.
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Last edited by CRMcNeill on Thu Jan 16, 2025 7:17 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2025 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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For my expanded universe, Comms do NOT work in hyperspace.. Not even from ships that took the same 'hyperspace window'.
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Whill
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| Posted: Sat Jan 18, 2025 4:03 pm Post subject: Re: Hyperspace & Comms |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Regarding comms, it’s a bit trickier. One headcanon idea I have is a very slow communication system (ala the ELF Transmitters used to communicate with submerged submarines). Transmission rates are only a few characters per minute, and are mainly used to instruct the receiving ship to make contact using some other method (like dropping out of hyperspace to access the Holonet). |
I like this as another technological option, but not the only one...
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | There’s sufficient evidence in the EU to indicate that ships’ comms are blacked out while in hyperspace. |
Not completely blacked out. There seems to be an indication in the EU that communication in hyperspace may be 'possible, however unlikely' in certain circumstances. The following text block is from the sourced EU/Legends Wookieepedia article on Hyperspace (emphasis mine):
Effects on sensors and comms
In addition to navigational hazards, there was also the difficulty inherent in communicating with a starship while traveling at hyperspeed. Since ships in hyperspace did not exist in a conventional sense, they were largely cut off from conventional radio or subspace communication, since wavelengths of any signal would be massively distorted even if they reached the vessel. Hypercomm signals could reach a vessel in hyperspace, however it was very difficult to communicate in even this fashion unless the signal was sent from one end or the other of the traveling ship's course, or between ships on the same course.
The same difficulties presented to communication also applied to sensors; it was nearly impossible to maintain sensor lock on a vessel in hyperspace, which made escape to lightspeed a very robust retreat option in most engagements... I find that this works for me.
I didn't bother looking at the DU article on Hyperspace because, if memory serves, we know that starfighters can orbit a planet at lightspeed, respond to a hyper-message, and orchestrate a coordinated exit into realspace, which makes me dizzy to even think about.
| garhkal wrote: | | For my expanded universe, Comms do NOT work in hyperspace.. Not even from ships that took the same 'hyperspace window'. |
Whatever works for you in your SWU.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Fri Jan 24, 2025 6:47 pm Post subject: Re: Hyperspace & Comms |
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| Whill wrote: | | The following text block is from the sourced EU/Legends Wookieepedia article on Hyperspace |
I’m somewhat skeptical of a Wookieepedia passage with so few cited sources. In fact, I don’t think that particular passage cites anything.
As I understand it, the working theory is that hyperspace is an alternate dimension, and the only form of energy that crosses the dimensional barrier is gravity. As such, any electromagnetic or weak nuclear radiation wouldn’t cross the barrier, and thus would be useless for either communication or detection purposes.
| Quote: | | I didn't bother looking at the DU article on Hyperspace because, if memory serves, we know that starfighters can orbit a planet at lightspeed, respond to a hyper-message, and orchestrate a coordinated exit into realspace, which makes me dizzy to even think about. |
Iirc, that was actually my theory as to how it was possible, based on the assumption that the N-CRAB device (which is experimental tech as of whenever Galladinium’s FT is placed in the classic era timeline) would’ve had thirty or so years to mature in order to make such a thing possible. I don’t know if Disney has ever addressed it on their own.
EDIT: Here’s the post where I suggested it, back in 2016.
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Whill
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| Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2025 3:03 am Post subject: Re: Hyperspace & Comms |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | There’s sufficient evidence in the EU to indicate that ships’ comms are blacked out while in hyperspace. |
Everyone is free to have it work whatever way you way in your SWU. But when talking about EU, that is a more objective consideration.
| Quote: | Effects on sensors and comms
In addition to navigational hazards, there was also the difficulty inherent in communicating with a starship while traveling at hyperspeed. Since ships in hyperspace did not exist in a conventional sense, they were largely cut off from conventional radio or subspace communication, since wavelengths of any signal would be massively distorted even if they reached the vessel. Hypercomm signals could reach a vessel in hyperspace, however it was very difficult to communicate in even this fashion unless the signal was sent from one end or the other of the traveling ship's course, or between ships on the same course.
The same difficulties presented to communication also applied to sensors; it was nearly impossible to maintain sensor lock on a vessel in hyperspace, which made escape to lightspeed a very robust retreat option in most engagements... |
If there are difficulties communicating with ships in hyperspace in the EU, that means it is not strictly impossible. If ships in hyperspace are largely cut off, that means they are not completely cut off. And the passage is very specific about the limited circumstances in which it is possible, so it is extremely unlikely that is just something that someone just fabricated out of nothingness and typed into a Wookieepedia article.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | The following text block is from the sourced EU/Legends Wookieepedia article on Hyperspace |
I’m somewhat skeptical of a Wookieepedia passage with so few cited sources. In fact, I don’t think that particular passage cites anything. |
Yes, the writer did not add citations to that passage so we do not know which of the article's 163 cited EU sources the information from that particular passage came from.
Your overly skeptical standard of rejecting any Wookieepedia passage that is not specifically cited as automatically incorrect information seems like a logical fallacy. In my experience with Wookieepedia (and I have read a lot of it), when I have researched actual EU sources I own (and I own a lot of them), Wookieepedia has almost always been correct. So what I've seen were many cases where article writers were just being lazy about the citations in the article. This laziness with the citations does not automatically mean the passages are incorrect.
The forum guidelines state, "If Wookieepedia is incorrect about something, show us why" and you stated, "There’s sufficient evidence in the EU to indicate that ships’ comms are blacked out while in hyperspace." So what is some of this sufficient evidence you refer to? What is the evidence that something difficult is actually strictly impossible in the EU?
This has low impact on most RPG campaigns anyway as R&E states that mainly only large ships even have hyperwave technology due to the energy expenditure, so it is not something that starfighters and most PC freighters are going to have anyway. If a ship doesn't have the tech, then it can't receive a message even in the limited circumstances the article refers to.
| Quote: | | As I understand it, the working theory is that hyperspace is an alternate dimension, and the only form of energy that crosses the dimensional barrier is gravity. |
Hyperspace is an alternate dimension, but the awesome energies of starships also cross the dimensional barrier twice for every hyperspace journey. And the premise of hyperwave technology is that hyperwave messages are created in realspace then sent into hyperspace as hyperwave energy, and then the energy is sent back into realspace for to the transceivers to receive the message. This is how it works even without spaceships being involved.
Your SWU can be based on any working theory you want because you are not required to make your SWU match the EU. But you indicated that there is sufficient evidence in the EU that ships’ comms are blacked out while in hyperspace, and so far, I've only see some evidence indicating otherwise and your personal choice to have a comms blackout in your SWU (which does not need any EU evidence).
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2025 8:10 am Post subject: |
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My point is more that a lack of sources allows for improper word choices to potentially allow for false impressions to be given. Unsourced Wiki articles are at risk of being unreliable narrators.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2025 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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I don't really see wiki as any sort of reliable source, especially if they're drawing say, from the comics..
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