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MrNexx
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 Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 2:28 pm Post subject: "Cost: Not available for sale" |
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Let me just say that this is one of the least attractive things I see in the books. I can understand that you don't want people bartering Star Destroyers and all, but it would be nice to have a ballpark for what some things are worth. "Oh, I can't buy a bowcaster? What prevents someone from killing a wookie and selling a bowcaster, then?"
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Ning Leihrec
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| Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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| I agree. I've always used the high and low end of the known cost spectrum to get a general idea... Blaster Pistol is 500 and a Correllian Corvette is 3.5 million (new). Then finding anything close to comparable within that range to help narrow it down. But yeah, not available for sale is a cop-out. It would be nice to know how much it costs to make a Star Destroyer or Bulk Cruiser without having to estimate on the spot. |
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Naaman
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| Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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Since you are dealing with the black market in such cases, an item costs exactly what a person is willing to pay for it.
The black market is still subject to concepts such as supply and demand... the greater the demand and the lower the supply, the higher the price. Furthermore, if there is no market competition, then the price can be driven up even further.
That's how I interpret the "not available for sale" entry. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 8:28 pm Post subject: |
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While agree, some items could just be bought on the black market, there ARE some items i do feel should NOT just be able to get purchased.. period.
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MrNexx
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| Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 10:57 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | While agree, some items could just be bought on the black market, there ARE some items i do feel should NOT just be able to get purchased.. period. |
Sure, but even things that shouldn't be purchased have value.
For example, Vangar's Pirate Corvette, in the Pirates of Prexiar adventure is "Not available for sale". N-1 Starfighter? Not Available for Sale. Is the N-1 Starfighter somehow more valuable than a Acclamator Assault Ship (29 Million New, 19 Million Used)?
Some things have "Not for sale" along with a valuation or used value on the Black Market... I'm not gonna argue that someone should be able to jander up to Kuat Drive Yards, plunk downa heap of credits and walk off with a Star Destroyer... but if someone DOES capture a Star Destroyer and want to sell it to the Hutts, how much should they ask without getting laughed out of the room?
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Whill
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| Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 11:43 am Post subject: Re: "Cost: Not available for sale" |
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| MrNexx wrote: | "Cost: Not available for sale"
Let me just say that this is one of the least attractive things I see in the books. |
What you seem to be saying that you are upset that a real world author who writes for an RPG set in a fictional universe doesn't just arbitrarily pull some number out of the air and put it in some of the equipment, vehicle and ship stats. The real reason there's no cost for a bowcaster is bowcasters are not real. The stuff that does have a cost is just something that some real person getting a paycheck made up for a contract they had.
This mentality of the inherent superiority of something written in an officially published work never ceases to boggle my mind. If something is missing in an RPG, you just fill in the blanks yourself. Your answer is no worse then theirs would be, but of course you are free to ask for suggestions from your peers here.
Are you are worried that prices seem unrealistic and things being under or over valued could cause problems over the course of your campaign? Well a galactic economy is a completely speculative thing, so just tweak things as you go along and hand waive the explanation that fluctuations on prices in a galactic economy are hard to predict. Galactic rebellions and interstellar wars lead can further destabilize markets.
Don't let yourself be frustrated by something missing when it's easy to just fill in the blank and roll with it.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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| MrNexx wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | While agree, some items could just be bought on the black market, there ARE some items i do feel should NOT just be able to get purchased.. period. |
Sure, but even things that shouldn't be purchased have value.
For example, Vangar's Pirate Corvette, in the Pirates of Prexiar adventure is "Not available for sale". N-1 Starfighter? Not Available for Sale. Is the N-1 Starfighter somehow more valuable than a Acclamator Assault Ship (29 Million New, 19 Million Used)?
Some things have "Not for sale" along with a valuation or used value on the Black Market... I'm not gonna argue that someone should be able to jander up to Kuat Drive Yards, plunk downa heap of credits and walk off with a Star Destroyer... but if someone DOES capture a Star Destroyer and want to sell it to the Hutts, how much should they ask without getting laughed out of the room? |
Point taken. Often a lot of those NFS items are captured and the pcs are looking to hock them, but in cases like that, i generally just eyeball it. Compare it to something that does have costs given.
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MrNexx
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| Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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I'm perfectly capable of pulling numbers out of the air, or benchmarking them off other numbers. But I prefer to have printed ones, partially so I don't HAVE to come up with my own numbers, partially so those numbers stay consistent from game to game (i.e. I don't have to remember what I pulled out of my @$$ the last time), and partially because the inconsistency of what is labeled "Not available for Sale" annoys me from a design perspective.
I can buy an Imperial Military TIE Fighter but not a Naboo spacefighter? I can buy the personally crafted hand to hand weapons of a violently xenophobic race from an utter backwater world, but can't buy the the weapons of a conquered people who have been spread throughout the galaxy by the Empire? Add in that they HAVE a code for not commonly available... call it a 4 X and it's suddenly rare to have and illegal to own.
It's a design issue. Not that it can't be overcome by a decent GM, but that it shouldn't have to be overcome.
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JironGhrad
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| Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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| MrNexx wrote: | | I can buy an Imperial Military TIE Fighter but not a Naboo spacefighter? I can buy the personally crafted hand to hand weapons of a violently xenophobic race from an utter backwater world, but can't buy the the weapons of a conquered people who have been spread throughout the galaxy by the Empire? |
Two things to consider: in your first example, you're talking about something that is relatively common (there are certainly millions of tie fighters in the star wars universe) versus something that is most probably built on-demand, in-house (by the Royal Naboo Industries). It's highly unlikely that Naboo exports their particular fighter and since it's built by a local supplier they probably don't leave them lying around. Meaning that "not available for sale" really means "must be stolen from original owner".
The second thing to consider is that in your second example (wookiee bowcaster), they aren't consistently making new ones. Wookiees slaves exported from Kashyyyk aren't allowed to make them and are likely actively prevented from acquiring parts. In this instance, traveling to the wookiee home world and finding a wookiee willing to break tradition/or freeing a wookiee slave and getting him/her to break tradition are equal to "not for sale".
Basically, just because obtaining parts for a thing may be possible; that is not the same as being able to buy that thing ready-made. I'd also posit that all Roleplaying games (but especially Star Wars) have always been about GM options as well as player options. What you see as a fatal flaw (lack of information) is intended to allow for custom crafted worlds. And really, if you're worried about consistency, how hard is it to pencil in next to the entry what you priced something at? |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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| JironGhrad wrote: | | MrNexx wrote: | | I can buy an Imperial Military TIE Fighter but not a Naboo spacefighter? I can buy the personally crafted hand to hand weapons of a violently xenophobic race from an utter backwater world, but can't buy the the weapons of a conquered people who have been spread throughout the galaxy by the Empire? |
Two things to consider: in your first example, you're talking about something that is relatively common (there are certainly millions of tie fighters in the star wars universe) versus something that is most probably built on-demand, in-house (by the Royal Naboo Industries). It's highly unlikely that Naboo exports their particular fighter and since it's built by a local supplier they probably don't leave them lying around. Meaning that "not available for sale" really means "must be stolen from original owner". |
You stole my thunder on that one.. I was going to mention that the big difference betwen the Naboo fighters versus Ties, is that the former, seem to be only made for/used by the Naboo royal family's guard. Not a common item for general consumption. Unlike Ties, which in novels and such, DO seem to get sold off to planetary militias and such..
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Whill
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| Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 7:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: | Since you are dealing with the black market in such cases, an item costs exactly what a person is willing to pay for it.
The black market is still subject to concepts such as supply and demand... the greater the demand and the lower the supply, the higher the price. Furthermore, if there is no market competition, then the price can be driven up even further.
That's how I interpret the "not available for sale" entry. |
That's reasonable.
| JironGhrad wrote: | | I'd also posit that all Roleplaying games (but especially Star Wars) have always been about GM options as well as player options. What you see as a fatal flaw (lack of information) is intended to allow for custom crafted worlds. |
Right on.
| MrNexx wrote: | | (i.e. I don't have to remember what I pulled out of my @$$ the last time) |
| JironGhrad wrote: | | And really, if you're worried about consistency, how hard is it to pencil in next to the entry what you priced something at? |
Yes, write it down. 'Nuff said.
| MrNexx wrote: | I'm perfectly capable of pulling numbers out of the air, or benchmarking them off other numbers. But I prefer to have printed ones, partially so I don't HAVE to come up with my own numbers, partially so those numbers stay consistent from game to game... and partially because the inconsistency of what is labeled "Not available for Sale" annoys me from a design perspective.
I can buy an Imperial Military TIE Fighter but not a Naboo spacefighter? I can buy the personally crafted hand to hand weapons of a violently xenophobic race from an utter backwater world, but can't buy the the weapons of a conquered people who have been spread throughout the galaxy by the Empire? Add in that they HAVE a code for not commonly available... call it a 4 X and it's suddenly rare to have and illegal to own.
It's a design issue. Not that it can't be overcome by a decent GM, but that it shouldn't have to be overcome. |
But it is what it is, now. So you're going to make a thread devoted to complaining about a deficiency of a game that ceased publication almost 20 years ago? And for the Naboo starfighter specifically, that's post-WEG so you are also complaining about the next two SW RPGs who must have also not created a cost for it?
I think a more significant flaw in the WEG game is that there was no centralized game system/mechanics editing between the many various WEG authors. Each author was contracted to supply X and they were paid if they supplied X on time - The only editing was for the fluff text and probably the spelling of skill names, but not the values. Inconsistency is a huge issue with WEG Star Wars. Yes it also seems obvious that there was apparently no hard requirement for a cost value - "Not for sale" was an acceptable answer and plenty of authors got away with not having to make one up for every single published item of equipment, vehicle or ship.
But instead of just complaining about these deficiencies of a game long out of publication, we can instead tweak the game system to have more consistency and fill in the blanks. If you want help, that's what this community is here for. I would suggest starting a new constructive thread that lists all the items that have no base value cost and let anyone in the community chime in with their suggestions. Of course you and everyone else are still free to use, disregard or tweak anyone else's suggestions.
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MrNexx
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| Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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So, in other words, "Don't be annoyed by things."
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JironGhrad
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| Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 10:03 pm Post subject: |
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| MrNexx wrote: | | So, in other words, "Don't be annoyed by things." |
Actually, what he said in other words was, "It's okay to be annoyed by things, but instead of complaining, be proactive and offer suggestions for fixing your annoyances, because we, as a community, are very willing to help fix them too." |
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JironGhrad
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| Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: | Since you are dealing with the black market in such cases, an item costs exactly what a person is willing to pay for it.
The black market is still subject to concepts such as supply and demand... the greater the demand and the lower the supply, the higher the price. Furthermore, if there is no market competition, then the price can be driven up even further.
That's how I interpret the "not available for sale" entry. |
You might also infer, in certain cases, such as "Vangar's Pirate Corvette" that some items will have to pried from the previous owner's cold dead hands. |
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Whill
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| Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 11:32 pm Post subject: |
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| JironGhrad wrote: | | MrNexx wrote: | | So, in other words, "Don't be annoyed by things." |
Actually, what he said in other words was, "It's okay to be annoyed by things, but instead of complaining, be proactive and offer suggestions for fixing your annoyances, because we, as a community, are very willing to help fix them too." |
Thanks for the summary. I'm too wordy sometimes.
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