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Dredwulf60
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 Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2016 1:22 am Post subject: Fixed-Difficulty dodge system |
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Here is the way I handle dodging in my game.
Dodge:
A character can choose to dodge or not to dodge.
Roll dodge skill. The Difficulty class to dodge a shot is 20.
If the dodge roll is 20 or higher, the shot misses, regardless of what the shooter rolled.
Dodge is a reactive skill; it always starts at full dice regardless of how many actions the character has already taken.
Each time a character dodged in a round however, there is a -1D penalty to the next round’s initiative roll. If their initiative dice are reduced to 0 in this way then they cannot act the next round; they are too busy avoiding fire. They have lost the firefight! (Character points may be spent to purchase dice to roll initiative.)
Dodge skill dice are also reduced by one for each dodge made in the round; this is in addition to the die reductions that come from the next round's initiative roll. (A character can be overwhelmed by incoming shots.)
Note that COVER (see below) dice are never reduced regardless of the number of incoming shots.
Cover
Cover provides bonus dice to the dodge roll based on how close it is and how much it can cover the body of the character.
Determine how many dice the cover provides and add it to the character's dodge dice pool.
Alternatively a character can choose to trust the cover alone; in which case they just roll the dice provided by the cover and try to achieve a roll of 20 or more to avoid incoming fire.
When they forfeit rolling their dodge skill, they do not incur initiative dice penalty.
This would be like a character shooting from a narrow window and doesn't feel the need to duck back every time they get shot at.
Cover dice are never reduced no matter how many dodges, unless the cover itself is being destroyed, though the shooter may then move to a better vantage point.
Examples of Cover values:
Prone on open flat ground: 1D
Prone on uneven field: 3D
Kneeling or low rocks and rubble: 2D
Vehicle nearby: 3D
In a crowd: 3D
Light foliage: 2D
Thick foliage: 4D
Jungle: 5D
Low wall or container: 5D
In a vehicle turret: 6D
Corner of a Building: 6D
Through a window: 7D
Through a slit: 9D
Called shot to bypass cover:
A target that is using cover will have to expose part of their body to perform an action. A character can choose to hit this exposed portion rather than the usual shooting at the center of mass.
Take the weapon's normal range-based difficulty number. Add 3 for every die of cover provided. If the roll is successful, the target can still make a dodge roll (Difficulty 20), but gets no cover dice.
If the attack roll fails, it is a miss.
Last edited by Dredwulf60 on Sat Jan 23, 2016 3:37 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2016 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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So say a pc had 8d dodge (ave roll of 8d is 28) he is assured of making that "DC 20" roll every round, but say is getting shot by 4 goons, is now having -4d to his next rounds initiative??
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Dredwulf60
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| Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2016 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | So say a pc had 8d dodge (ave roll of 8d is 28) he is assured of making that "DC 20" roll every round, but say is getting shot by 4 goons, is now having -4d to his next rounds initiative?? |
Yes, exactly.
Also to point out that in my game human sized characters roll 2d for soak against blasters, instead of their Strength attribute (can still add armor dice.)
So blasters are deadly; I wanted to promote that so that people always want to use cover if available.
Also, an average roll of 28 isn't really assured when you need a 20. As we know a single bad roll can change things drastically. So that character would definitely be using a nearby cover for the extra dice to really be assured.
Now if the cover is good enough, (providing 8d on its own) he might just trust it to protect him and not have to reduce his initiative; he wouldn't be getting 'pinned down'. |
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garhkal
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2016 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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My issue with that, is it effectively takes out the to hit roll of the shooter from the equation. So it matters not really if you have a 4d goon firing or a 12d anti-hero shooting yuo, so long as the defender can hit that 20 score.
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Dredwulf60
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| Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2016 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | My issue with that, is it effectively takes out the to hit roll of the shooter from the equation. So it matters not really if you have a 4d goon firing or a 12d anti-hero shooting yuo, so long as the defender can hit that 20 score. |
And this is exactly why I developed it like that.
I know it's counter-intuitive, but I've given it a lot of thought over the years.
This is not to say that I think it's better for anyone else, and I'd never try to browbeat anyone to adopt it, but it's better for me.
Here is my rationale:
When you shoot at someone in the game, your difficulty is based on the weapon you are using and the range to that person.
In RAW insofar as i can recall (I haven't played RAW in this regard in over a decade and a half), you have to roll over the difficulty number generated by range...and then over the opponent's dodge roll. Or is it that an opponent's dodge roll adds to your weapon's range based difficulty?
In either case, the range-based difficulty seems to becomes secondary to the target's dodge roll.
The way I look at it, your attack roll is about hitting a target at a certain range. I think of it like being on a shooting range; a really good shooter can put his shots into a very small circle from very far away. He's putting the shots where he wants them to go.
Someone who is dodging just has to move out of that spot. The DC for the dodge is 20 because its assuming you are human size. That's how hard it is to make sure your body isn't where that guy intended his shot to be.
A Jawa might only needs a 15. He's smaller so he has to move his body a lot less to get it out of that circle.
A herglic might need a 25 to dodge, because it's so big and has so far to move.
When you're behind partial cover, you have a lot less to move; ie if you are crouched behind a shipping container you only have a quarter of your body visible, so you only have to duck down to avoid a shot.
Also, I'm not really talking about dodging a blaster-bolt in mid-flight...well maybe a little. Mostly it's about getting out of that shooter's sight picture.
So in any case, when you dodge, that shooter's shot still goes where he intended it...you just aren't there when he pulls the trigger.
...
I first started doing it this way after running a game centered around a group of young padawans during the Clone Wars.
I had the same base DC of 20 for them to deflect incoming blaster bolts. It didn't seem right to me that a REALLY good shooter's blaster bolt would be harder to deflect than a really crappy blaster bolt.
If a jedi was just standing there, the best shot a shooter would deliver would be a heart or head shot. It's either coming directly for the target or it isn't. No matter how good the shooter is, the blaster bolt isn't going to curve around the lightsaber's intercept.
Thus the flat DC to protect yourself; although with the jedi I had each additional shot reduce the jedi's die code; as they can get overhwhelmed.
I'll also add that when a character is dodging against a repeating blaster, the flat DC to dodge goes up by 3 per shot; the idea being that there is a bit of a dispersion pattern; you have to get your body more completely out of the way than you would against just a single blaster bolt.
That's my reasoning anyway.
Game play wise, it works because it's really simple. If you are getting out of the way of fire, you know what you need to roll...and you will want the bonus dice of anything around you that you can use.
EDIT: Also I wanted to make firefights more cinematic. In movies you see groups of shooters trading shots back and forth for several minutes without any hits necessarily scoring, because everyone is actively taking cover.
In my early SW games firefights were over VERY quickly if there was a highly skilled shooter on one side. I sometimes got a player saying "This guys so good, why bother to try to dodge? I'm better off not wasting an action. I just shoot back and hope i drop him before he drops me."
EDIT EDIT:
CRMcNeil said it well in the discussion on parrying blaster shots with lightsaber. He's done a better job of explaining my thinking:
| Quote: | But how is a single shooter supposed to beat the Jedi's defense? It's not like he can somehow make blaster bolts more difficult to parry. A blaster bolt will be traveling at a speed and trajectory dictated by physics, and the shooter's control of said bolt ends the moment it leaves the blaster. So while Boba Fett may be able to pick where his shot goes with pinpoint precision, whereas a stormtrooper might just get lucky and hit his target, a blaster bolt is simply a blaster bolt. It's a linear energy discharge that may or may not intersect with a point in space occupied by its target.
A high Blaster roll simply makes a blaster bolt more likely to go where you want it to go. The RoE optional damage rules factor this in; the higher you roll, the more accurately you are able to place your shot to inflict damage. It does not (or should not, at least) make the blaster bolt harder to hit.
As a real world example, a bullet from an M1911 .45 is going to have the same muzzle velocity (relatively speaking; there is a lot of variation between ammo types) regardless of whether it is being fired by a raw recruit or a veteran Delta Force assault specialist. The Delta operator's shot will be far more likely to go where he wants it to go, but regardless of who is doing the shooting, the bullet will be traveling the same velocity. A person who has the ability to sense the shots coming and swat them out of the air will experience no difference in difficulty between the recruit's shot and the veteran operator's shot; they're basically the same bullet once they leave the gun's barrel.
The point I'm trying to make is that the shooter's skill has no appreciable effect on the blaster bolt itself. No matter how high he rolls, he can't make the shot somehow more intense, or make it jink at the last second to avoid the lightsaber's parry attempt; all he can do is shoot well enough to make the bolt hit the target. The physics of the bolt itself (such as the Scale difference shootingwomprats mentioned) may make the bolt harder to parry, but an accurately fired shot is just an accurately fired shot. Even range isn't a realistic factor, as a Jedi's precognitive sense is going to alert him to the incoming blaster bolt regardless.
What the more experienced shooter can do (and does, as seen in AOTC and TCW) is to barrage the Jedi with multiple shots, accepting MAPs of his own in order to inflict them on the Jedi by forcing the Jedi to parry multiple shots. |
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garhkal
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | I know it's counter-intuitive, but I've given it a lot of thought over the years.
This is not to say that I think it's better for anyone else, and I'd never try to browbeat anyone to adopt it, but it's better for me.
Here is my rationale:
When you shoot at someone in the game, your difficulty is based on the weapon you are using and the range to that person.
In RAW insofar as i can recall (I haven't played RAW in this regard in over a decade and a half), you have to roll over the difficulty number generated by range...and then over the opponent's dodge roll. Or is it that an opponent's dodge roll adds to your weapon's range based difficulty?
In either case, the range-based difficulty seems to becomes secondary to the target's dodge roll. |
First off you are wrong on that RAW.. If you are just making a reactive dodge, your dodge roll replaces the normal range based difficulty, whether its higher or lower.. SO if you roll real bad on your dodge, you could be making it easier to hit you.
Only when you make a full dodge, does it combine. BUT you get no actions elsewise (even moving) when making a full dodge.
I also think cause you have not played by the RAW in a long time, it clouds your opinion on whether this is good or not.
With a rule like this in game, i would never even bother taking a pc to more than 5d in blaster or firearms/grenade etc, Ever.
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Dredwulf60
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| Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | I also think cause you have not played by the RAW in a long time, it clouds your opinion on whether this is good or not.
With a rule like this in game, i would never even bother taking a pc to more than 5d in blaster or firearms/grenade etc, Ever. |
You're right. I've not done it RAW in a long time. But there was a reason I left it behind.
My PCs want to up their skills in blasters a lot. Mainly it's for consistency. They want to be assured of meeting their range-based difficulty every time despite MAPs and other penalties.
If they do that, then they have done their part; put their shot exactly where they intended it to go. And they can shoot multiple times...over and over again. The chances that every shot is on target are higher with a higher skill.
A higher skill makes sure their shots are on target at further ranges.
When I run it, a character who doesn't roll high enough to achieve their weapon's range-based difficulty...means the target doesn't even have to make a dodge roll. It's 'Non-effective fire' as we say in the infantry.
When their target is using cover, sooner or later they are going to fail that dodge roll and that's when they get hit. And in my version getting shot is not something they can just shrug off.
But you're right...5d is pretty competent. Most shooters probably won't need much higher to do their job. They can already hit the bullseye almost every time. 6d and up are for the really effective shooters that can take called shots and engage multiple targets in quick succession. |
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Dredwulf60
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| Posted: Sat Jan 23, 2016 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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EDIT:
Original language implied that dodge skill dice are not reduced by taking actions.
Corrected to show that dodge skill dice reduced by 1D for every dodge; it is the dice provided by the COVER that is never reduced, regardless of how many dodges are made. |
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Dredwulf60
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| Posted: Thu May 30, 2019 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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Just giving this a bump after re-reading the other activity on parrying blaster bolts; Giving it a static number to achieve regardless of the incoming skill roll.
This system still works well for me.
It is also quite effective at simulating suppressing fire.
Bad guy gets the drop on you; luckily you are standing near that corner to duck behind. You only need a 20 to dodge the incoming fire and the corner gives you 6D.
So you can pull your head and arm behind the cover and pop out randomly hoping it's not at the same moment the shooter fires. This lets you roll your dodge skill with the cover bonus, with a -1D every time you have to dodge, which is also a -1D to next round's initiative.
I had a character last game who was taking fire from 3 opponents. He had to keep ducking back so many times that his initiative dropped away to 0;
He was suppressed and didn't get to roll initiative the next round, luckily he had backup on the way.
Or you could trust that you are a small target and just let the wall do its job. You don't roll any dodge skill dice, using just the 6D from the cover. This is the character keeping a low profile while returning fire, blaster bolts slamming into the wall nearby.
No loss of actions and no loss of initiative...but a decent chance of taking a hit.
If it's a relatively close-range shoot out amongst good shooters, we don't even bother to make blaster attack rolls...just go right to the dodge rolls....and see which side has the overwhelming firepower to pin down the other and then capitalize on it with an assault. |
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Naaman
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| Posted: Thu May 30, 2019 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Nice system. The initiative penalties representing suppression is a nice touch. |
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Naaman
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| Posted: Fri May 31, 2019 11:40 am Post subject: |
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Question about having initiative reduced to zero:
Suppose the guy behind cover tossed a grenade without breaking cover or shot blindly around the corner (or wanted to), would you allow it? |
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Dredwulf60
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| Posted: Fri May 31, 2019 11:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: | Question about having initiative reduced to zero:
Suppose the guy behind cover tossed a grenade without breaking cover or shot blindly around the corner (or wanted to), would you allow it? |
As long as the guy behind cover is doing anything that doesn't expose him to fire is fine, but whatever it is it is done last in the round (as he is presumably still fairly rattled.)
Other things include using a comm link, applying a medpack, crawling away if he can stay completely in cover etc.
Firing blindly around cover would not be allowed by default...as he is still breaking cover, albeit just a tiny bit. An expert marksman might be able to hit the hand or destroy his weapon; theoretically.
It could still be done, but it would involve burning a couple CPs to be used for initiative, which is the willpower required to do it. |
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Tupteq
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| Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 8:03 am Post subject: |
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You bumped the topic, so let me criticize your idea 
IMO good shooting skill doesn't mean you just hit the exact point, but you are also trained in prediction of possible opponent moves (i.e. dodge) depending on it's body position, movement speed etc., and to make a hit to the location where it's most probable that enemy body will be located. Blaster bolt is rather fast and even though it's slower than firearms, if you want to dodge it, you need to start your maneuver before gun is fired. You just don't have enough time to wait to see where the bolt flies and avoid that place - instead, you just do your best in making your position unpredictable.
In case of Jedi parrying blaster bolt I still think a good shooter may place a bolt in location where it's hardest to parry depending on current position of lightsaber and it's momentum. There are also anatomical limitations that can be taken into account, that can be exploited by a skilled assassin.
In my house rules I'm taking range into account while dodging. Attack roll is modified by range (point-blank +5, close +0, medium -5 , long -10) and then it's compared to dodge roll. This way it's easier to dodge a hit from long distance, which makes sense to me.
Example: Stormtrooper is shooting at Rebel at distance 90m (medium range) and rolls 16 (normally it would be a hit). Rebel is dodging, but rolls only 13. Following RAW it would mean hit, but with range modifier applied stormtrooper result is 16-5=11, miss. |
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Naaman
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| Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:12 am Post subject: |
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A fair critique, but I'll offer that avoiding being shot at point blank range would be much easier than at close or medium range: the closer you are, the larger a movement the shooter has to make to adjust to your movement. The bigger the gun, the more true this is.
If you are within "charging distance," there is a decent chance of not getting shot (a shooter who is already aiming at you has the advantage, though, just to be clear).
Guns work best when you have plenty of space. An opponent who has a reason to fight back (even if unarmed) is better off being very close to a shooter. A jedi with a lightsaber at point blank range DEFINITELY has the tactical advantage over someone with a blaster... and if the shooter has any idea what he's up against, he'd probably think twice about shooting at such an opponent... unless he is either naieve or supremely confident in his skill. |
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CRMcNeill
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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At the risk of side-tracking your discussion, what's your take on the Static Defense rule from the Min-Six ruleset?
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