Please discuss the merits of the Attribute raising mechanics

[Xzil Maru]

Is there something I missed or does this just royally screw you and force you to raise your skills and specialize instead? Gambling gobs of GM given character points just doesn't seem right IMO.
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Plook Bomdarb says "Will Kill for food."

[RedFox]

I'm glad they give the opportunity but I hate mechanics that completely waste effort and CP for no reason. The Attribute raising rules do just that if you manage to succeed at the contest vs. the GM. There goes half your CP! Tough luck, sucker.

I'd almost rather they say, "You can't raise Attributes past species maximum."

On the upside, improving Skills and specializations is fairly trivial and very rewarding in SWD6 and has no inherent limitation or maximum. If you want to buy your way up to 20D in Scholar, it's just going to take you time and CP.

I'm personally inclined to think the inflated prices on Attributes are enough by themselves, though rather than get rid of the cap entirely I was thinking of increasing the price yet again for Attributes bought past species limits. Much like Deadlands changes Aptitude pricing structure after "expert" level. I think this, coupled with getting rid of the "roll and possibly lose CP and gain nothing" mechanic, may be the most fair.
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[Gry Sarth]

I don't think you should ever go beyond the species limit for any given attribute (except maybe in some special cases such as extensive cyborging or whatever), in normal circumstances, there's just no way a human can go higher than 4D.
However I do despise the whole gambling rule where you might not be able to raise your stats and lose half your CP. We never use that in our games. I believe the extensive training time and hefty CP cost is fair enough for raising an attribute. If you were patient enough to save some 30 or so CPs, you've earned an attribute raise, just not above the species limit.

[RedFox]

Well from what I recall quite a few NPC characters have traits beyond their species limits. There's a thread about the Royal Guard around here somewhere, for example. I seriously don't have a problem with it. If you've saved that much CP, I think you should knock yourself out.

I wouldn't allow breaking species limits at character creation though, as I think that's primarily what they're there for.
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Ooo, a droid! Can I fix it?

I have Star Wars stuff!

[Xzil Maru]

hmm then I think I'll try running it where you can buy up your attributes to your species maximums at standard cost, above that it will cost extra say 50 CPs or so. I should have posted this in House Rules.
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Plook Bomdarb says "Will Kill for food."

[Crell Damar]

The amount of CP I think is enough... Most species have a max at 4D attributes... Having to save up 40 character points to raise it to 4D+1, then another 40 to raise it to 4D+2, And then yet another 40 to raise it to 5D finally... you've worked through 120 character points... how many game sessions is that? Not to mention all the training time required. And you guys do know that if you attempt to do that without a teacher or trainer, costs and time spent is doubled, right? So 240cp later, and I think it's 1 day spent per character point... so almost a standard year of training, to get 1D raised onto their attribute past max... going naturally... for something like a wookie? *Whew* How often are you players getting up to even 120 cp? I've gotten my first character ever up to 100 just last session. And my GM is fairly liberal with the character point distribution.
On top of that, to have a teacher, they need to have their attribute higher than you want to achieve. So then you go into the ordeal for that as well.

I can see how you guys may have a problem with the incredible CP cost... I personally wish it cost less... like maybe 5x attribute instead of 10. But raising your attributes I think is supposed to be a very in depth experience. It only makes you that much more attatched to your character... at least it should. All the time invested. Character points spent.

As for cybernetics, be wary. More cybernetics means more darkside points. The less human you are, the more corrupt your mind can become. Or something along that line I think is what they had in mind when they made the table. And even non-force sensitive people are supposed to lose their characters when they fall to the darkside. And if you have enough cybernetics, you can fall with just one evil act...

The corruption of the machine weighs deeply on the soul of a man.
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"For over a thousand generations, the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic. Before the dark times... before the Empire. "

Obi-Wan Kenobi

[RedFox]

[Gry Sarth]

One thing that's not being considered in this "raising attribute above species limit" discussion is that not everyone is human. Ok, maybe spending 40 CP to go from 4D to 4D+1 is a fair cost to go beyond the species limit. But what about, say, raising a Mrlssi's Strength above the species limit of 1D+2? That only costs a meager 10 CPs! After spending the reasonable amount of 70 CPs you could have a Mrlssi with a Strenght of 3D!!! And then you have a member of a species that's supposed to be ultra-fragile with the Strenght of a strong human. And he didn't spend an obscene amount of CP to get there, and it only took him some two months of training.

Get my point?

I stick w/ my opinion that a species limit exists for a reason.

[RedFox]

So change the multiple of the CP cost for post-racial-limits to an insane amount, as Xzil Maru suggested. Maybe 20 or so times the number before the D in the die code. Then it's at least 20 CP to raise up one pip, which is definetely non-trivial.
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Ooo, a droid! Can I fix it?

I have Star Wars stuff!

[Crell Damar]

I don't really see a problem with ignoring the roll-off with the GM until you've reached your species' maximum. But once you roll higher than the GM for that, that attribute is maxed, you can't try again. So no worrying about losing half the CP until you try to surpass your limitations.

As for the discussion on cybernetics and the weight on the "soul" of a person. We don't really know what happens when you integrate machine with flesh. We can continue the Philosophical debate in the other topic though.
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"For over a thousand generations, the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic. Before the dark times... before the Empire. "

Obi-Wan Kenobi

[RedFox]

[Volar the Healer]

We play the rule as written. No one's ever complained.
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[RedFox]

[Volar the Healer]

Only three or four over the years. The director suggested that this had to be role played; so these characters spent time in game doing weights or hitting the books. In all cases they were improving weak attributes, not trying to exceed racial maximums.
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Know Jesus, Know Peace.
No Jesus, No Peace

[Ray]

One PC (The insane Rodian I keep mentioning) raised his attributes a couple of times. Never failing on his roll once.

Crunch, my infamous Klatoonian Roustabout, increased his Intelligence, and I started running him a touch smarter as well. He finally got to command, as well. Admittedly, only a handful of Speederbikes, but every little bit helps! He commanded them well, as well!