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Edheldun
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Joined: 05 Nov 2013
Posts: 16
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 Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 4:17 pm Post subject: Templates at Character Creation |
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Do you have your players create characters based on existing templates, or are they free to make something up from scratch?
Some of my players really like building crazy characters from scratch, using obscure alien races and asking for crazy equipment like a cybernetic blaster arm. I hate to make them feel like I'm limiting their creativity, and the oddball characters can be really fun, but I feel like it makes roleplaying difficult for some of them.
Right now one character is a Noghri with the cybernetic blaster arm. I explained that to make this character make any sense he would have to be a former commando for Vader and would have all sorts of baggage about the Empire, as well as loyalty to his people. Sometimes I think they would benefit from playing simpler more stereotypical characters. |
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Zarm R'keeg
Commander
Joined: 14 Apr 2012
Posts: 481
Location: PA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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I tend to give them the templates as inspiration, allow them to allocate their own attributes within the character creation rules, and simply veto any backstory or species that is too outlandish, game-breaking, or continuity-breaking. ("I want to play a Yuuzhan Vong warrior fighting for the Rebellion just after ANH." "Ummmmm... no." "I want to be a Teek! They would have move of, like, 100, right?" "Maybe... but no, you can't." etc.)
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DougRed4
Rear Admiral
Joined: 18 Jan 2013
Posts: 2286
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 11:11 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, I think it's admirable that you are trying to allow the creativity, and the most important rule is that you all have fun.
That said, there's certain things that stretch (or even break) the boundaries of what we understand of 'Star Wars', so it's okay to reign in your players and make sure they don't stretch things too far.
I would be hesitant to allow an Ewok Jedi, for example, personally. Or a Tusken Raider or Gungan one, either.
BTW, welcome to the Pit, Edheldun!
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10438
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 12:50 am Post subject: |
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All of the above.
I have a long list of "approved" templates (some pretty much as published, some tweaked to my liking, some significantly altered, and some of my own device. I have a long list of "allowable" PC races (most altered from published form as I see fit). There may be some considerations depending on the campaign era and type.
If a player wants to take a template and make his PC as-is, well that is what templates are for so that's cool. If a player wants to adapt an existing template to another species, that's usually cool unless it is a nonsensical matchup. I actually encourage players to tweak and alter templates (especially background) to personalize their characters. If a player looks through all the templates and still wants to write up their own character type (usually but not necessarily inspired by existing templates), I allow them to develop their character concept and present it for consideration, and we refine it together. I can imagine there being many things that I wouldn't approve, but in practice there has never been a case where the player and I just couldn't work it out.
As far PC race, if a player goes through all the "playable" races and still has his heart set on playing something else (from the films, EU or even a species of their own creation), then I let them attempt to sell me on their character concept but may still suggest some of my species as alternatives to possibly work within my species list. If they sell me on a "non-playable" species for their character concept, then we work out the stats and abilities for my Star Wars Universe and add it to my species list, thus making it officially playable. I am sure I have had to just flat-out reject a few player species choices over the years (but at the moment I can't think of any cases of that).
I would veto a cybernetic arm blaster for any character. The closest I have ever come to that was a Robocop-like cyborg that had a hidden compartment in one of his thighs for a normal blaster, and that was over 20 years ago. I take to heart Star Wars' themes of not relying on technology. Before every campaign I make it clear to the players that outside of maybe the PCs' ship and NPC droids (and maybe a Jedi's lightsaber passed down or acquired as part of a quest), players shouldn't get too attached to any piece of technology because sooner or later it is likely to get lost, stolen or destroyed.
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14215
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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When i DM i usually stick to book listed templates and my own generated ones i have, but races can be selected if their min/max fits into the template.
As to the cybernetics stuff, i feel that is something that should never be started with as it could mean you have some characters with thousands worth of credits in value of tech on them while others may only get a few hundred.
As a DM you should always retain veto rights over any choice for starting race/class/template etc.. So a Nogori in the rise of the empire sort of campaign would (our should) be right out of the window. In a post thrawn era, while they are now known about they are still rather split in loyalty to the skywalkers/solos and vader.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10438
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 11:29 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | As a DM you should always retain veto rights over any choice for starting race/class/template etc. |
Yup.
| garhkal wrote: | | So a Nogori in the rise of the empire sort of campaign would (our should) be right out of the window. |
I'm not sure if Noghri even exist in my SWU, but I've never had a player ask me to be one so I've never had to veto it.
| garhkal wrote: | | As to the cybernetics stuff, i feel that is something that should never be started with as it could mean you have some characters with thousands worth of credits in value of tech on them while others may only get a few hundred. |
Good point.
| garhkal wrote: | | When i DM i usually stick to book listed templates and my own generated ones i have, but races can be selected if their min/max fits into the template. |
So let's say a player wanted to play a Smuggler but the species Mechanical max for their chosen species is only 3D+1. Would you not let the template be tweaked slightly to fit the species? Would you not lower the Mechanical to the species max of 3D+1 and let the PC have an extra pip on another attribute (also within the min/max of the species)?
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DougRed4
Rear Admiral
Joined: 18 Jan 2013
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Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2014 7:10 am Post subject: |
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This thread (and discussion) has made me realize one thing: in my group templates are just not something the PCs have ever used. To be honest, I'm not sure some of my players even realize they exist.
Rather, my players pick species and archetypes, then allocate 18D among their various stats. For those that choose to play an alien species, they take a look at their species' minimums and maximums and special abilities, but for the most part I don't think there's been much (if any) looking at templates. And that's been for about eight characters (for seven players).
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2014 11:02 am Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: |
So let's say a player wanted to play a Smuggler but the species Mechanical max for their chosen species is only 3D+1. Would you not let the template be tweaked slightly to fit the species? Would you not lower the Mechanical to the species max of 3D+1 and let the PC have an extra pip on another attribute (also within the min/max of the species)? |
I've seen other versions of the smuggler (like in platts) so could see matching his request with one of those, such as the veteran spacer, roustabout etc.
| Quote: | | Rather, my players pick species and archetypes, then allocate 18D among their various stats. For those that choose to play an alien species, they take a look at their species' minimums and maximums and special abilities, but for the most part I don't think there's been much (if any) looking at templates. And that's been for about eight characters (for seven players). |
Only issue i see there, as has been brought up in some threads on bullet proof wookies etc, is i do notice players overload one or two attributes at max, and spread the rest rather thin.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2014 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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| DougRed4 wrote: | | Rather, my players pick species and archetypes, then allocate 18D among their various stats. For those that choose to play an alien species, they take a look at their species' minimums and maximums and special abilities |
Nothing wrong with that. Before campaigns I always have a game session devoted entirely to character creation so we have time for that. Templates have two purposes. They allow players to create a character quickly on the fly if needed (or wanted). And templates serve as a starting point or inspiration for players to create their own templates. I love templates being there for those reasons, but of course you can just ignore templates, choose a species, allocate attributes accordingly and go from there.
| garhkal wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | So let's say a player wanted to play a Smuggler but the species Mechanical max for their chosen species is only 3D+1. Would you not let the template be tweaked slightly to fit the species? Would you not lower the Mechanical to the species max of 3D+1 and let the PC have an extra pip on another attribute? |
I've seen other versions of the smuggler (like in platts) so could see matching his request with one of those, such as the veteran spacer, roustabout etc. |
OK, Smuggler was not the best example. Let's say a player wanted to play a Quarren Xenoarchaeologist. The template's Knowledge is 4D, but the Quarren species max is 3D+2. You wouldn't allow the template to be altered slightly (lower Knowledge to 3D+2 and add a pip to another attribute still within the species max attributes)? You wouldn't allow a Xenoarchaeologist to be a Quarren? I keep forgetting that some GMs are married to RAW. But then again, in RAW players can even create their own templates within the min/maxes of the PC's species, so he could create a "Quarren Xenoarchaeologist" template which just happens to be a slight alteration of the Xenoarchaeologist template.
| garhkal wrote: | | Only issue i see there, as has been brought up in some threads on bullet proof wookies etc, is i do notice players overload one or two attributes at max, and spread the rest rather thin. |
| garhkal wrote: | | As a DM you should always retain veto rights over any choice for starting race/class/template etc. |
Like you said, player min/maxing should not be a problem if you are using your veto powers.
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Lane Arroway
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Joined: 02 Feb 2013
Posts: 153
Location: Taris, Outer Rim
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| Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2014 1:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | OK, Smuggler was not the best example. Let's say a player wanted to play a Quarren Xenoarchaeologist. The template's Knowledge is 4D, but the Quarren species max is 3D+2. You wouldn't allow the template to be altered slightly (lower Knowledge to 3D+2 and add a pip to another attribute still within the species max attributes)? You wouldn't allow a Xenoarchaeologist to be a Quarren? I keep forgetting that some GMs are married to RAW. But then again, in RAW players can even create their own templates within the min/maxes of the PC's species, so he could create a "Quarren Xenoarchaeologist" template which just happens to be a slight alteration of the Xenoarchaeologist template. |
Actually, I don't believe the RAW suggests that a quarren in this example couldn't fit into this template, but that the template should be adjusted for the quarren. These templates are just examples of a typical character with standard stat min/max.
My veteran players are used to making their own character, while some need more guidance and examples. For my last game I decided the players stick to temlpates and try to enjoy them for what they are. I think this approach is best for new players, gms or both. It allows for balanced play, imo. This was one way to keep a new player to my games from repeating the same power gaming habits from other games. *cough,dnd,cough*
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garhkal
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| Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2014 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Lane Arroway wrote: | | Quote: | | OK, Smuggler was not the best example. Let's say a player wanted to play a Quarren Xenoarchaeologist. The template's Knowledge is 4D, but the Quarren species max is 3D+2. You wouldn't allow the template to be altered slightly (lower Knowledge to 3D+2 and add a pip to another attribute still within the species max attributes)? You wouldn't allow a Xenoarchaeologist to be a Quarren? I keep forgetting that some GMs are married to RAW. But then again, in RAW players can even create their own templates within the min/maxes of the PC's species, so he could create a "Quarren Xenoarchaeologist" template which just happens to be a slight alteration of the Xenoarchaeologist template. |
Actually, I don't believe the RAW suggests that a quarren in this example couldn't fit into this template, but that the template should be adjusted for the quarren. These templates are just examples of a typical character with standard stat min/max.
My veteran players are used to making their own character, while some need more guidance and examples. For my last game I decided the players stick to temlpates and try to enjoy them for what they are. I think this approach is best for new players, gms or both. It allows for balanced play, imo. This was one way to keep a new player to my games from repeating the same power gaming habits from other games. *cough,dnd,cough* |
Exactly. It gets them used to playing within what does exist, and can give them ideas for making new templates up (like the dozen or so i have made).
As to that player and wanting to be a Quarren Xeno-archeoilgist, if that template existed, but was just one pip out from being allowed to quarren, and i KNEW the player, yes i could see allowing a 1 pip alteration.
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Bulldogzeta
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Joined: 08 Jan 2009
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Location: Fox Valley, Wisconsin
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| Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2014 11:59 pm Post subject: |
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Hope you don't mind my 2 credits worth.
I believe in being flexible. But I'm also fortunate that my regular players are role-players rather than rule lawyers or combat mongers. I don't treat templates as absolutes but rather I use them as starting points.
I currently have 2 campaigns going. One that I estimate is now in its 18th year. The other for about a year. This second one is the first campaign to last more than just a few sessions since the first campaign. Both campaigns have great characters.
Using the example of a Quarren and a xeno-biologist, I would give the racial KNO max of 3D+2 priority and allow the extra pip to go to another attribute (within racial minimums and maximums). I don't recall any time I've allowed starting characters to exceed racial max in attributes. I always adjust the template to fit the race.
Another area of flexiblity is template skills. If the player has a logical reason for a skill that's not on the template, I will allow it as long as most of the skill dice are placed in template skills. In the end, I consider character concept more important than the template.
There may be times when a concept doesn't fit a race / template combination. In those cases I have the player find either a different race or a different template.
Needless to say, this flexibility requires GM and players to work together, but this method has produced memorable characters.
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DougRed4
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| Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2014 1:57 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Only issue i see there, as has been brought up in some threads on bullet proof wookies etc, is i do notice players overload one or two attributes at max, and spread the rest rather thin. |
Fortunately, I've got pretty mature/experienced players. They all spread their stats out pretty equally (or more specifically, didn't max things out or give themselves huge numbers for any attribute).
| Whill wrote: | | Nothing wrong with that. Before campaigns I always have a game session devoted entirely to character creation so we have time for that. Templates have two purposes. They allow players to create a character quickly on the fly if needed (or wanted). And templates serve as a starting point or inspiration for players to create their own templates. I love templates being there for those reasons, but of course you can just ignore templates, choose a species, allocate attributes accordingly and go from there. |
I too typically spend a session on character creation. I don't remember if we did this with Star Wars, though, as we were pretty familiar with the system, so it was easy enough for players to make them up on their own (and coordinate with me to avoid duplication). For the most part, though, your view is exactly the same as mine re: templates.
| garhkal wrote: | | As to that player and wanting to be a Quarren Xeno-archeoilgist, if that template existed, but was just one pip out from being allowed to quarren, and i KNEW the player, yes i could see allowing a 1 pip alteration. |
Wow! Even if I didn't know the player. Forget that. Even if I didn't know the player and had heard countless stories of how much of a power gamer min/maxer they were, for the above scenario it would take me about .00000000000001 seconds to allow the shifting of a single pip (like in this instance).
| Bulldogzeta wrote: | Hope you don't mind my 2 credits worth.
I believe in being flexible. But I'm also fortunate that my regular players are role-players rather than rule lawyers or combat mongers. I don't treat templates as absolutes but rather I use them as starting points.
I currently have 2 campaigns going. One that I estimate is now in its 18th year. The other for about a year. This second one is the first campaign to last more than just a few sessions since the first campaign. Both campaigns have great characters. |
I not only don't mind your 2 credits worth, but I very much value it!
Congrats on such a long-running campaign! I've currently got a supers game that's been going nearly 24 years, though I'm considering tapering it down from every other week to meeting a little more infrequently (to play some other games on that night).
Like you, I don't treat templates as absolutes, but rather view them as 'quick start' outlines and starting points.
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2014 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Bulldogzeta wrote: | Another area of flexiblity is template skills. If the player has a logical reason for a skill that's not on the template, I will allow it as long as most of the skill dice are placed in template skills. In the end, I consider character concept more important than the template.
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When you do that, is there an upper limit to how many 'additional skills' that can be argued should be part of the character?
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Bulldogzeta
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Location: Fox Valley, Wisconsin
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| Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2014 3:49 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Bulldogzeta wrote: | Another area of flexiblity is template skills. If the player has a logical reason for a skill that's not on the template, I will allow it as long as most of the skill dice are placed in template skills. In the end, I consider character concept more important than the template.
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When you do that, is there an upper limit to how many 'additional skills' that can be argued should be part of the character? |
I don't use a hard number, but I don't think I'd allow more than 2 dice going into skills not on the template. Depends on the character concept.
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