The orders rulings on the jedi strictures.

[tetsuoh]

Just how often has the jedi order actually denounced a member or initiate/padawan due to them breaking the jedi code?

I have seen and heard of countless jedi falling in love and even marrying. Yet in phantom menace and swtor we are informed that doing so can lead to expulsion from the order. And yet again I have never actually seen it happen.

It is blatantly obvious that master Yoda knew of Anakin's involvement with Padme, and even while Obi-wan told Anakin he would be "kicked out of the jedi order!" - It never happened.

I have a player who has learned a force tradition based on caring and understanding of others and is a matchmaker - believing in the union of people. Yet now they seek to become jedi.
Would the jedi even accept them?
The campaign is pre empire.

[DarthOmega]

This is one of those areas where the EU and the movies clash, and big time. One of the most prominent Jedi dynasties was started by a Jedi who married a woman (who was also massively Force-sensitive and became a powerful Jedi in her own right in time) and had a daughter with said wife. That dynasty was the Sunriders with the wife and daughter being Nomi and Vima.

Yet in the movies as you pointed out, attachments are verboten and looked down upon. Yet the fact remains that even after cutting Anakin's legs off, Obi-wan admits his OWN attachment to Anakin "You were my brother Anakin!"

I personally think that it comes down to which side of the Jedi spectrum you fall - the strict adherence to the Jedi Code, or more along the lines of the Living Force (very few fall in between, it's kind of an either or deal from what I understand). Both are very different philosophies within the Jedi Order, and I believe that the following of the Living Force would allow for attachments and such.

But ultimately, if you're running the game, the answer is - it's your game, do what you believe is the right thing for your game.

I have a counter question for you (and anyone else who cares to answer), one that I have pondered quite a few times and one you should consider with your current dilemma - how smart is it to kick someone who is only partially trained out of the Jedi Order? Shouldn't they be worried that said person would turn to the Dark Side? Same with not training someone after they've grown up. Again wouldn't it be better to try and train them rather than just let them go with the potential of becoming a dark-sider?
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[Kytross]

Allow me to present a contrary view.

In one of the many first drafts that lead to the creation of Star Wars, Luke Starkiller and his brother were trained in the ways of the force by thier father.

In the first four movies produced (IV, V, VI, & I) there is no mention of Jedi not being able to have relationships. On the contrary, we saw Luke's interest in Leia in the first two movies, which Obi-Wan encouraged to get Luke to join his quest. Leia and Han does not come up as an issue once we learn she is force sensitive. Anakin was hitting on Padme in ep I and no one said anything. There are hints of an attraction between Shmi and Qui-Gon. Throughout the EU Lucas retained creative control and told the writers not to mention the clone wars or the Jedi ghosts. It would have taken one sentence for him to say, 'Jedi take vows of celibacy, like Shaolin monks.' But he never said it. If he had planned jedi celibacy from the beginning, then it is the worst foreshadowed plot point in history, having multiple plot points that contradict it.

It is clear that Jedi celibacy was added in at ep II and previous to that film the concept did not exist and the contrary was true.

In fact, Luke's famous declaration, "I am a Jedi, like my father before me!" makes no sense in context now. If Jedi are celibate, then how can they have children? They would have to violate thier celibacy to do so

[Whill]

Interesting discussion. Yes, there was somewhat of a disconnect between the EU and the films.

In the EU, the Republic and the Jedi order are a 1000 generations old based on Obi-Wan's line in ANH. In Lucas' prequel state of mine (likely aided by misremembering the exact line of ANH dialogue and not being bothered by consideration of EU continuity), the current Republic has only been around for 1000 years. At that time, the Sith were a recent offshoot of the preexisting Jedi Order. The Sith took control of the galaxy (Mace Windu to Palpatine: "The oppression of the Sith will never return!"), but the Jedi successfully rebelled against them and destroyed the Sith (or so they thought). The Jedi helped to establish the Republic which does not have any full-scale galactic war until the Clone War. The Jedi Order has practices in place designed to prevent Jedi from going to the Dark Side as the Sith had.

To retcon everything back together, the EU established that the Old Republic still formed 1000 generations ago as did the Jedi Order, and the new Sith 1000 years ago were a resurgent sect of Sith. After the Jedi saved the galaxy from Sith oppression, a new Republic was formed (in light of the post-RotJ New Republic, this Republic might be considered the Middle Republic but at the time of ANH it may have been commonly lumped in with the old Republic because both Republics were much more similar to each other than the Empire). It was then that the Jedi instituted the practices of disallowing Jedi to have families (be married, raise sons and daughters) to prevent attachment, which had lead some of the members of the pre-reformed Jedi Order to the Dark Side. All this allows for the prior Old Republic and Jedi Order to exist further in the past than the events leading to the films. That pretty much works, but then again I personally don't care about most of the EU's pre-prequel Jedi order because my personal canon doesn't deal with anything approximately between 25000 BBY to 2000 BBY (It only deals with before and after that time period).

Avoiding attachment in general is a Buddhist philosophy which was obviously an influence on Lucas. However lack of attachment does not necessarily mean celibacy. I see no evidence in the films, even the prequels, of celibacy being a definite rule for Jedi. Qui-Gon obviously had a one-night stand with Shmi in TPM but displayed no signs of attachment to her. Regardless of your personal code of conduct, it is possible for some people (especially people well-centered like Jedi Masters) to have casual romantic encounters and not developement attachments. Maybe celibacy was a Jedi "best practice" that Qui-Gon broke due to his defiant nature, but it is not specified one way or the other in the films.

It was obvious at the beginning of AotC that Obi-Wan knew Anakin had some level of infatuation with Padme, but doesn't necessarily mean he is going to act on those feelings and against the Jedi Order code of conduct. Near the end of the film when Anakin wanted to act on feelings for Padme, Obi-Wan stepped in and appropriately warned Anakin that he would be expelled from the Jedi Order if he disobeyed his master and abandoned the immediate concern of capturing or killing Count Dooku. The warning worked and Anakin relented.

Obi-Wan did not know of Anakin's secret marriage to Padme. Otherwise, when Obi-Wan visited Padme to try to learn where Anakin was and realized she was pregnant, Obi-Wan would have been accusing Padme of possible cheating on Anakin when he said, "Anakin is the father, isn't he?" And Obi-Wan was the padawan of Qui-Gon who was known to defy the Jedi Council to follow his own instincts, so maybe some of that rubbed off on Obi-Wan so he wasn't so strict with the guidelines himself (Yoda: "Qui-Gon defiance I sense in you"). And in RotS, before Anakin was known to have turned to the Dark Side, Obi-Wan clearly expressed that he felt Anakin was indeed the Chosen One who would bring balance to the Force and destroy the Sith Order, so maybe he had been a little lenient with Anakin because he was going to save the galaxy anyway. He certainly would have had compassion for Anakin's for his mother dying in his arms (and across the galaxy Yoda knew Anakin was in terrible pain). Most Jedi wouldn't have these traumatic experiences because they come to the Jedi Order as babies before developing life-long attachments.

I disagree that Yoda knew of Anakin's involvement with Padme. When Anakin went to Yoda to discuss his visions of someone in his life dying, the novelization indicates that Anakin said it was someone close to him without being specific, to let Yoda believe it was Obi-Wan. There is nothing in the films or anything else I've come across to make me believe that Yoda really knew and just pretended he didn't, but I'd be happy to consider any evidence supporting this claim.

Luke wasn't raised in the Jedi Order like most Jedi, and he even started his training a decade older than his father had (who was already an exception to the rule as it was). Luke having an interest in rescuing Leia is not anything that would provoke any warnings from Obi-Wan because he really knows they are siblings. Since the twins had been separated soon after birth, Obi-Wan never saw them together except for maybe his quick glance over to the Falcon before he let Vader kill him. And Ghost Obi-Wan presumably didn't see Luke acting on his attraction to her and feel the need to step in ("Luke, use the Force, before intercourse."). Yes, the Jedi Order did try to prevent the situations that could engender feelings that might lead someone astray form the ideals of the Jedi, but ultimately it was your actions that counted the most.

And by Luke's time the Jedi Order was decimated so Yoda and Obi-Wan were just winging it. At the end of RotS, Obi-Wan expressed that the children must be hidden and separated so the Sith could not sense their presence, so at that time they were making a conscious choice to not follow the Jedi rule of training them from birth. In TESB, even though it had been 3 years since the Death Star had been destroyed, Palpatine tells Vader the offspring of Anakin Skywalker is a new enemy who could destroy them, only when Luke is about to receive training from Yoda. It seems clear the 2 Jedi Masters felt the twins had the best chance of surviving to adulthood to defeat the Sith if the twins were separated and not trained to be Jedi as children. And as Obi-Wan explains to Luke in RotJ, they were separated to protect them, and they were not told of each other before Luke's training was complete because of one sibling telling the Sith of the other, which became a extremely significant point of the drama of the climax of RotJ when Vader gets the info from Luke's mind and that provokes Luke to almost cross over to the Dark Side.

Luke said, "like my father before me" because Anakin his father had been a Jedi and he was in the same room. That makes perfect sense. Luke was trying desperately to inspire Anakin to become good again. And maybe celibacy was not the rule in the old Jedi Order just specifically so the Jedi (males anyway) could have one-night stands in the travels through the galaxy with no attachments, that later procreated children strong in the Force!
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[Barrataria]

[Barrataria]

[Jedi Skyler]

That's just it; Jedi don't actually have to have children. The Force will ALWAYS find a way.

How long do you suppose celibacy was imposed upon the Jedi Order, and yet they still kept finding individuals to bring to the Temple and train up as Jedi? One does not need to necessarily be part of a Jedi's lineage in order to be strong in the Force.

However, the Order could have allowed Jedi to continue to marry and have children, and used that as part of teaching the doctrine of not having attachments, but altering it so that one understands the need to put the good of the galaxy above themselves, even if it means never seeing their family again. Having Jedi who are regularly having children would have meant the ranks of the Jedi would have been exponentially greater, and it's possible that things would have turned out vastly different than they did in the films.

[shootingwomprats]

I think I will step into this discussion now =)

Something we should take into consideration is the passage of time and the change of ideas. For example, homosexuality in the Catholic church was evil, not its pretty much being accepted. Same thing with the Jedi.

I would say that the Jedi order has probably had a change in how it deals with relationships several times over its lifetime. We also have to accept that there was dogma in the Jedi order.

I would guess the majority of this dogma was either not very important or the acceptance or lack thereof also changed over time. This also brings up an interesting idea of dogma and multi-generations. Think of how people start out liberal and become more conservative as they get older as an example.

The current dogma of no emotional attachments is held by the Jedi Council and those others who have drunk the Kool-Aid. I am sure Anakin was not the first to ignore dogma to follow his heart.

I think the question is deceptively hard. How it is accepted and how it is dealt with directly relate to the time/era as well as those in control of the council.
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[Kytross]

Wow. All I was trying to get across was that the whole no-attachment/chastity/celibacy, whatever thing was a late addition retcon after thirty years of contrary stories. Granted, it was the middle of my sleep cycle, so I could have been more clear.

It would be like putting out another Back to the Future movie with Biff suddenly, and with no explanation, being the hero. It just didn't make sense. It is a clear continuity error, one of the biggest in any series.

To clarify that point about "I am a Jedi..." Luke is declaring his adherence to the light side by advocating attachment and a clear violation of the Jedi strictures, both steps toward the dark side, similar steps his father took. Palpatine would have cackled in joy at such a convoluted statement and told Luke something like, "with every moment you become more and more my servant."

Seriously, hire an editor.

[Whill]

[Whill]

[DarthOmega]

No need to explain Whill, I believe we're all adults and realize the realities of procreation. I would hope that you speaking the truth isn't going to cause anyone to get hurt feelings .

At any rate, I believe that, as you stated earlier, working with the idea of an evolving Jedi Order works best to explain differences in how the order views the attachment issue. As for Qui-Gon's 'defiance', if I recall correctly he was a strong advocate of the Living Force philosophy.

I REALLY want to talk about your views on the EU and how Lucas is in regards to it, but that wouldn't be on topic, and I could go on with a few paragraphs on my views of it. I will state for the record on Chewbacca's death - not only did Lucas accept the proposal, he pushed for it.
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Knowledge is power, and power corrupts...so what does that say about knowledge?

Read my gaming blog at www.alteredrealities.net - click on the tabs near the top for the different pages that usually have character bios and other info.

[garhkal]

Further muddling the issue is Ki-ad mundi, one of the masters who supposedly had more than one wife.
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[Whill]

[Barrataria]